Open Minded to less frum... and more??

byisrael

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:09 am

This drives me NUTS!

I have a certain relative (she is frum) who was totally okay going to another relatives CONVERSIAN in a CHURCH because" we have to love and accept everyone" but won't talk to my brother because when she booked a family meal at a resturant that SHE KNOWS he doesn't eat he polietly came, paid his share in full, and sipped water drinks while everyone else ate....

I guess his standards intimidate her (he does not have a hloier then thou attitude, trust me I kniw what that looks like) and when the other relative converted it didn't threaten her....

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:21 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Why do I have a hard time loving people who "knowingly" go against the torah, ppl who have no problem hurting individuals or the klal but expect all of klal yisroel to love them in return?
they forget every halacha but they don't let me forget the v'havta
I would love to consider myself open minded but I have a hard time with this particular set.
I am not talking about ppl who struggle and are searching for their truth. I'm specifically talking about the lhachisnikas (however that's supposed to be spelled.)

Are some of them in pain?

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:25 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

I always treat everyone with respect but I do not feel that I am treated as such in return.
I feel that here (and if I go to boro park / Lakewood/ Monsey... I am treated with distain, I really hate going. I dress per their tznius guidelines, but maybe not they community norm. (I wear a black skirt and tights as opposed to navy skirt and palm stockings. My hair is covered, but not double...). In Woodbury commons, people have been downright nasty (but not just to me, to non-Jewish sales associates as well)

Can you give specific examples?

Do you know for a fact that you are treated nastily because of your clothing? For example, members of a certain community/ culture do not say good morning to anyone they meet. It's not just to you. They are pushier and more demanding than the average American, but they don't discriminate based on how you are dressed. Trust me. It's quite possible that they would treat you even worse if you looked like them.

I was very put off by such behavior until I went to Russia and Hungary and saw just how cultural it all is. Im not saying it's ok, I'm just saying that it probably has nothing to do with your dress.

amother

Mint

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:29 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

I don't feel that way in this site at all.
1) I don't think I (MO) are "less frum" than some chassidishe or Lakewood. 70 panim laTorah, it is a different face and a different interpretation. Not wrong, different. I always treat everyone with respect but I do not feel that I am treated as such in return.
I feel that here (and if I go to boro park / Lakewood/ Monsey... I am treated with distain, I really hate going. I dress per their tznius guidelines, but maybe not they community norm. (I wear a black skirt and tights as opposed to navy skirt and palm stockings. My hair is covered, but not double...). In Woodbury commons, people have been downright nasty (but not just to me, to non-Jewish sales associates as well)
On this site- different is considered less. My DD learning Gemara is not less that whichever school yours attends.
I will say, EVERY Chabad woman I have met in real life has just been a lovely Kiddush Hashem.

I think it is super important to treat everyone with respect.

I am JPF so don’t fully understand all the different nuances between us. Please can you explain to me how a navy skirt would be considered more of a “community norm” than a black one in some circles? 🤔

amother

Bronze

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:30 am

Flip Flops wrote:

We hear it so much today. Being open minded to Jews on all levels, accepting of those who have different standards than us... Yet somehow I feel like people only act this way toward those who are less frum than them.
The many people out there who go around saying, "I'm so open minded" only use this in reference to those who are less frum and have lower standards, not more frum. These same "open minded" people are so quick to scorn, put down or make fun of those who are more frum or have higher standards.
It's like, G-d forbid to make a condescending remark about your more modern cousin, but feel free to make fun of your yeshivish neighbor. Why??

Ok I'll bite.
The reason its harder for me (someone who tries hard and takes pride in being accepting of everyone, no matter how different) to be open minded and accepting of my uber yeshivish aquanitances as opposed to my more modern ones, is because I dont feel judged and looked down on by my more modern ones.
Its as simple as that.
If I thought my more yeshivish aquaintances were NOT disapproving in my level of dress, or that my kids watch movies, or any other of the million things I do on "lower standards" than them, then id feel less defensive, and I wouldnt be so quick to be closed minded towards them.

This is definitely true for me. I know a few people who are waaaay more yeshivish than I am and genuinely dont seem to feel superior, like theyre on a "higher madreiga". I love them to pieces.

The rest do give off that vibe. Whether they intend to or not. (They probably dont.) Thats the vibe they give off.

And that is why its easier for me to be open and accepting to some people more than others.

southernbubby

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:32 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

The answer lies in the way you phrased the question. You automatically assume that a certain lifestyle is more or less frum than another. What if you could appreciate difference without assuming a hierarchy?

I am typing on a smart phone that my neighbors are so opposed to using that they don't want me to use it to give them the weather. They keep Shabbos 72 minutes after shkiah and Chabad doesn't do that. I am not sure that the 2 examples are in any way equivalent. I drive and can't speak much Yiddish. I wear 3/4 sleeves. I don't buy only pas Yisroel breakfast cereal.
I don't avoid secular reading material but they do.
Basically, while I consider myself to be a very frum person, they do have stricter standards. They are friendly but they have a more insular and demanding life than I can accept for myself.
I think that we have to be honest with ourselves about where we are in our avodas Hashem and not get defensive if someone is committed to doing more.
At the same time, a serious black hat boy probably won't marry a girl who wears short sleeves, even if she does more chessed than everyone else put together.

amother

Mint

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:35 am

southernbubby wrote:

Just curious, what is the problem for some people with 3/4 length sleeves that cover the elbow?

Also, by non Pas Yisroel cereal do you mean things like Cheerios?

amother

Oak

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:56 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

Well, I'm from the yeshivish community and to be honest, I feel extremely judged by other sectors, including Chassidim, both here and IRL.

Some questions/comments I get all the time:

1. Why do you have so many kids? Don't you know that's irresponsible?

2. Why do you encourage your sons to learn after marriage and your daughters to marry learning boys - isn't that irresponsible?

3. Why do you get married so late, and how do you allow your kids to go out with so many random people (this from the Chassidim)?

4. Why don't you allow your sons/daughters to have friends of the opposite s*x?

5. You must all be on programs (FTR I have many friends who are in long term kollel who are not on programs).

6. And you're probably lying and cheating to get them (if the husbands in kollel, which money Are they hiding??!!)

7. You live such a gashmiyus lifestyle...

8. And... Why does everyone look so simple and uncared for?

(As if there is no gashmiyus in other frum communities).

9. The biggie - the kollel lifestyle is very irresponsible and it's going to implode soon (that's what they said 50 years ago when my father and his friends started kollel).

There's probably more, but I can't think of it all right now.

So yes, we feel judged (at least I do). Extremely so. Just FTR.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:08 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

Im actually yeshivish myself. (Though in a more openminded community than most)

To answer your post, everyone of every type gets judgemental questions. Thats the nature of the world.

My point was that its harder to be tolerant and accepting of people who seem to look down on your level of "frumkeit".

It just is. When you feel defensive because people believe they're on a "higher madreiga" you dont feel very accepting of them.

Being "judged" by people who are more modern than me, like the details in your post, doesnt make me feel so bad. Its very different.

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:10 am

thunderstorm wrote:

To be very honest, I personally have a hard time being open minded towards people with “higher standards” when they don’t come across as authentic and sincere in what they are doing. Sometimes it’s all a show. But if you are real and live on a higher standard than me and you practice what you preach , I actually admire you greatly.

My dh is pretty much like the op describes, but maybe he's like that in a certain way because of what you wrote. He's noticed it with too many people, he is or became a cynic.

Fox, I think we can close almost any thread after you post because you always seem to say it all and perfectly!! Thumbs Up

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:14 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

I agree, judging is the nature of the world.
If I really thought all paths were equal, there would be no reason to choose mine.

There will always be some judgment, and I don't think one sector is more judgmental than another. The challenge is to be tolerant, even if we think others' lifestyles are lacking in some way.

amother

Brown

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:31 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Sure.

I was Pesach shopping in a supermarket in Monsey, dressed completely tzniut per my community standards. I couldn't find something, and asked another woman if she knew where it was. She glared at me, turned and walked away in a huff. OK, one bee-yotch in every crowd, and I found her. Until the second person did it. And the third. And the fourth. I was almost in tears when I finally found a manager, who helped me locate several items.

And that's not the only time its happened.

SixOfWands

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:39 am

byisrael wrote:

I don't agree with what your relative did, but I can explain it.

When her relative converted to Xtianity, it was a rejection of religious beliefs, not a rejection of her. That's not hard to understand.

When a religious relative says "your food isn't good enough for me," that feels like a slap in the face. Its a statement that the relative believes that she don't really keep kosher. and make no mistake, its rejection in both directions. The person choosing the restaurant is making a clear statement "I don't accept that your standards reflect a correct interpretation of kashrut." But the person sipping water is making a clear statement that "I don't accept that your standards reflect a correct interpretation of kashrut. I think that you're a heathen eating treyf, and I won't eat it." [I]Neither is accepting.

urban gypsy

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:43 am

Fox wrote:

It's possible to convey acceptance without affirmation, but that's usually unsatisfying to people who feel guilty about what they're doing in the first place. They want affirmation, and you're under no obligation to give them that.

EXACTLY! This is an important lesson I learned in therapy (thanks therapist!) that the first step towards sanity and peace is "radical acceptance." I was raised by a mother who often did the opposite, as if saying "I don't accept this!" to things she disapproved of could change them by some sheer force of will. In order to move forward, it is necessary to acknowledge your reality first, and people are often afraid that if they do so they are implying their approval, which is NOT the case. And as Fox writes, demanding affirmation from people is overstepping emotional boundaries which is NOT okay.

amother

Peach

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:46 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

So it's not just me? I thought maybe I gave off a bad body oder or something.

And if it is a community thing that is going on, it is a HUGE CHILLUL HASHEM and the community needs to work in their middot. Maybe they need some lectures or something in the schools.

How is one frum if they dress so modestly but have absolutely no Ben Adam Le'Caveyro.