Open Minded to less frum... and more??

southernbubby

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:54 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Sure.

I was Pesach shopping in a supermarket in Monsey, dressed completely tzniut per my community standards. I couldn't find something, and asked another woman if she knew where it was. She glared at me, turned and walked away in a huff. OK, one bee-yotch in every crowd, and I found her. Until the second person did it. And the third. And the fourth. I was almost in tears when I finally found a manager, who helped me locate several items.

And that's not the only time its happened.

I have seen that people here are very protective against anything that they perceive as an outside influence. My grandchildren, who dress Crown Heights style feel stared at and don't make too many playground friends. Apparently many left Brooklyn to live a more pure Chassidishe life, while others were maybe running away from that.
It doesn't bother me because I understand where it's coming from. If nothing that they do makes sense from a financial perspective, it doesn't affect me directly because I am no longer raising kids who have to keep up with the community standards (which I view as unsustainable but then Hashem runs the world and is obviously providing everything.)

amother

Peach

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:02 am

I find it really sad that when I go to some of these "hamish" places, the only person with any middot is the Hispanic guy sweeping the floor.

It really is a chillul Hashem.

If you are so concerned with an "outside influence" maybe invest more heavily and have more confidence in teaching you children/community to internalize their belief system so they both know and be proud of who they are, even when others are different.

amother

Peach

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:13 am

I am very open minded until I feel put down.
I have no problem with your son/husband learning in Kollel, but don't insult me and say you are better that me and then ask me to pay for it.

Dress however you want but don't have bad middot in the supermarket.

When I tell my conservative coworker or my non-Jewish coworker that my DD learns Gemara, they think it is so amazing that they take bible studies so seriously and work so hard, here it is a reason for Kares.

Need I go on? because I can.

I think the major issue, which has been stated many times above, is respect.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:48 am

I know exactly what you mean. I'm MO (although much farther to the right of how I grew up) and I've seen this a lot in the community where I grew up. There was basically this sense of pride that we MO are so much better at bein adam l'chaveiro than more right wing Orthodox, and really how can they even call themselves frum if they forgot the bein adam l'chaveiro half of the Torah. Lots of crowing about how superior MO is every time some guy with a beard and black hat got arrested for some scam. Lots of self-congratulations about how we understand the Torah better because we're the best at doing the Rambam's shvil hazahav. The Rambam, folks! The Rambam himself advocated for the middle ground, so how can anyone justify going too far right and call themselves frum!

I've come to see the irony in it. I've been on the receiving end of judgment for something someone interpreted incorrectly and were not DLKZ, and specifically called me out with "how can you be so frum with your tichel and do x hurtful thing?" They eventually apologized when they got the full story, but honestly, you would think someone who thinks their bein adam l'chaveiro skills are so superior would have done a better job at being DLKZ in the first place... I do believe in my derech of RWMO, but my biggest criticism is that there's a tendency to think we're more enlightened and have more "balance", and the fact is that's not always the case and we're not doing the cheshbon nefesh we need to be doing.

SixOfWands

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:53 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

You said it so much better than I did.

byisrael

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:01 am

SixOfWands wrote:

I don't agree with what your relative did, but I can explain it.

When her relative converted to Xtianity, it was a rejection of religious beliefs, not a rejection of her. That's not hard to understand.

When a religious relative says "your food isn't good enough for me," that feels like a slap in the face. Its a statement that the relative believes that she don't really keep kosher. and make no mistake, its rejection in both directions. The person choosing the restaurant is making a clear statement "I don't accept that your standards reflect a correct interpretation of kashrut." But the person sipping water is making a clear statement that "I don't accept that your standards reflect a correct interpretation of kashrut. I think that you're a heathen eating treyf, and I won't eat it." [I]Neither is accepting.

This would make sense if my brother was actually being condescending and giving over the feeling that he thinks we are all heathens who eat treyf. No one else felt like this accept for said relative who is so "accepting of everyone"....

SixOfWands

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:08 am

byisrael wrote:

He didn't need to say a word. He said it loud and clear by sitting there and only sipping water, making perfectly clear that he didn't consider the food to be kosher.

I wonder if he asked his rav about humiliating a relative in that way. Because yes, its humiliating to have someone at the table practically shouting YOU'RE EATING TREYF. Did he consider ordering a salad, no dressing, no onions, which should be fine whatever the hecksher.

leah233

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:27 am

When I see screaming about tolerance in certain venues I'm reminded of the observation made by a famous non-Jewish thinker :

“I learned that very often the most intolerant and close-minded people are the ones who congratulate themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness.”

Genius

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:33 am

SixOfWands wrote:

She didn't cook the food. Why does she get insulted? I don't think that implying "the food isn't kosher enough for me is the same as saying ur all eating treif. Ppl are entitled to have their standards and principles wo others becoming insulted.

amother

Aubergine

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:42 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

Im actually yeshivish myself. (Though in a more openminded community than most)

To answer your post, everyone of every type gets judgemental questions. Thats the nature of the world.

My point was that its harder to be tolerant and accepting of people who seem to look down on your level of "frumkeit".

It just is. When you feel defensive because people believe they're on a "higher madreiga" you dont feel very accepting of them.

Being "judged" by people who are more modern than me, like the details in your post, doesnt make me feel so bad. Its very different.

Yes and no. I'm not the person you responded to, but I agree with her. We are in kollel in an oot community, where kollel is not the norm. I get this all the time. And it's coming from a place of superiority. I get yelled at that I'm taking discounts and government programs because my husband is in kollel and people don't want to support me. Everyone is judging me all the time and are very rude about my lifestyle. The funny thing is that I work full time (ok I'm taking a break to write this), and don't take a cent of tuition breaks, government programs, etc. So please don't tell at me for living off the public when I'm not. And when people say negative things, yell at me, and in general rude, it really hurts a lot. And no, I'm not judging the people saying this for not covering their hair, not keeping my chumras, etc. I do judge them for having terrible middos.

amother

Linen

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:44 am

genius wrote:

She choose the restaurant. Same thing.

amother

Peach

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:48 am

genius wrote:

That is completely untrue. I (like most people I imagine) have been on both sides. I eat OU/chalav stam, and I have both relative who don't and relatives who Cinsider themselves kosher (Hebrew national, cheese with a plain K, one sponge) and those who are not kosher, but get "kosher " special for us-think non-shomer Shabbos "kosher" deli.
I would never say to do something other than what you do, but realize what a fine line it is and how carefully you must walk.

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:59 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Salad is actually one of the most problematic things due to checking for bugs.

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:05 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

It was a kosher restaurant. I would presume that the veggies were checked, but he didn't hold by the hecksher.

If he doesn't hold by that hechsher he can't eat the vegetables there. We go to various friends and family members with various kosher standards and the one thing I stay away from (unless I know for sure it was pre-checked, or from a hashgocha I eat) is vegetables that are known to need checking.

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:07 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Can't you just look at the salad before you eat it?
Checking is not the same as toiveling or kashering right?

No, many vegetables and herbs require washing with soap or other wash, and/ or checking by a special or natural light.