Less frum more frum

Mommyg8

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 7:59 pm

I think that more frum and less frum really do have a real meaning, not related to whether you are part of the Chassidish, yeshivish, JPF, or MO derech. I think it has to do with how serious you are about keeping mitzvos and even perhaps chumros (really! Chumros is not a dirty word!)

I think that there are more frum and less frum in every sector. There are people in the yeshivish or Chassidish world, for example, who I think are less frum in that they don't really think too much about Yiddishkeit, and there are people in the MO world who take their Yiddishkeit very seriously.

Also, who's to say that someone with better middos but slightly less tznius (objectively) is less frum than someone who is covered to the hilt but is nasty to everyone she interacts with? The last time I checked, there are 613 mitzvos in the Torah and tznius is just one....

JMHO.

simcha2

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:31 pm

It's a loaded descriptor.

Take wearing tights as an example (just because there's been a post in the past couple of days that questioned denier levels).

I hold by the mishnah berurah who defines the שוק as the thigh and the knee. Therefore I'm makpid to wear skirts and dresses that fully cover my knees when standing, sitting, walking etc. If you hold by the chazon ish, that the שוק is also the lower leg then you cover that too.

But I don't consider someone who wears tights to be frummer, rather they hold by a different shita. As, the shita I hold, holds, l'halacha it's unnecessary to cover the lower leg. I'm fulfilling the halacha fully.

The term frummer frequently becomes more about hashkafa than halacha.

keym

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:28 pm

simcha2 wrote:

I agree a lot with you. Except I define more frum/less frum within ones shitta.
So to continue your example, in your community, a woman who wears her skirts right over her knee is less from than you.
My rav holds the leg has to be covered-opaquely. So in my community wearing 30 denier is "less frum" than 60 denier.

amother

Indigo

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:34 pm

keym wrote:

Is the wearing of 60 denier tights an indicator (badge?) to show the community "I'm an extra pious person"? because the actual wearing of the 60 denier tights on its own over 30 has does not make a person more religious.

Flip Flops

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:50 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

Why do you get the feeling that those wearing thicker tights are trying to show everyone how pious they are?
People don't take on chumros or hold of a more stringent standard in halacha to show off!! We do what we feel is right and we all try to be the best people we can be and serve Hashem in our best possible way.
Gosh, some people will never get it!

amother

Indigo

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:56 pm

Flip Flops wrote:

Explain it to me then. How does wearing 60 denier tights make Chani a more religious person, then Chani was when Chani wore 30 denier tights. I don't get it.

When I then compare Chani in 60 with Shani in 30, I can say as an outside observer - Chani is frummer than Shani.

paperflowers

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:05 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

If you hold lehalacha that the lower leg needs an opaque covering, then being careful about that is more frum. She’s not comparing someone who holds like that with someone who holds that the lower leg needs any covering, even sheer, or someone who holds it needs no covering at all. It’s about how careful you are with basic psak halacha, however that happens to be defined by you/your rav.

Flip Flops

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:23 pm

paperflowers wrote:

Thank you. Well said.
Please don't mistaken being more frum with thinking that they will get more schar or that Hashem considers them to be greater than someone else.
Hashem judges us based on how much we grow and how good of person we are. I like to think of it as a ladder - it doesn't matter who is on a higher rung, it depends on how many rungs we climb. So you can have someone who has come a long way in their yiddishkeit and avodas Hashem, yet may not be covering her lower leg at all and can be such a great person in Hashems eyes.
It isn't for us to decide.
BUT, in our terms, and in terms of more/less religious based on what we see, yes, someone who has a more strict interpretation of halacha or more chumros will be considered "more frum".

amother

Olive

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:34 pm

paperflowers wrote:

I can understand this if you apply this to your own person. But being that most people have their own Rav, and not the same like you, how do you go about comparing less or more frum with other people?

I'm looking at my own family. Most of us have different Ravs, even within the same community. My Rav tells me 30 denier is ok, my sister's holds differently. So is my sister more frum than me, if we're both following two different Ravs?

If I decide to wear 40 denier, then I'm being more frum. And if I decide to wear 20 denier then I'm being less frum. That makes sense to me. But what doesn't make sense to me is deciding if I'm being less or more frum based on another person's Rav?

amother

Indigo

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:42 pm

paperflowers wrote:

re the bolded - so basically being extra fastidious = more frum.

I guess I'll never get over how body coverings became so important. Its really what you are doing with your day in whatever you are wearing that to me, gives a much better idea of frumkeit.

Shani who runs from Mitzvah to mitzvah (and goes above and beyond with each one) in her 30 denier tights (as per her rav) wins hands down in frumness to Chani wearing her 60s (even though her rav holds 30) and otherwise having a not particularly meaningful day.

keym

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:42 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

And that's why I specifically said within a shitta. Like I said, my rav holds that legs have to covered- opaque. So wearing 60 denier is frummer than 30 denier. However, assuming 60 is completely opaque, it's not frummer to wear 100 denier.

Simcha2 said that her shitta is to cover her knees. So for her wearing a skirt over the knees is less frum than covering your knees. However wearing a skirt to mid calf does not make one even frummer.
So it turns out the woman wearing a skirt just below the knee is "frummer" than the woman from my shitta wearing 20 denier.
Does that make sense?

amother

Olive

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:48 pm

keym wrote:

Yes, but my question still stands. If that's the definition of it, how can anyone use the term more frum or less frum to describe others, especially strangers? The words 'more frum' and 'less frum' can never truly be put into use. Perhaps only in your own private circle, but never on strangers, and even more so on a community level.

keym

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 10:54 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Well people can say whatever they want, but I agree with you. I try to use more or less frum only to describe myself and people in my close inner circle- spouse, kids, etc.
While I see people using it, it's an exercise in futility.
I'm not frummer for keeping Rabeinu Tam Shabbos. So why call it frummer.
Call it by its description. Rw, lw, makpid in this chumra, meikil in this.

amother

Olive

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:00 pm

keym wrote:

I call it as each community choosing to express their frumkeit in different ways. Some choose external factors, and others choose internal factors. But as long as the actual halachos are being kept, they're all equally frum.

So my next question is - what do people try to gain from declaring their own frumkeit to be more frum than the next person's frumkeit. Is it only a self-serving act, to make themselves feel better about it, or is there something else to it?

paperflowers

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:34 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

I was responding to an example using leg coverings so I went with that. But I do agree with you that wearing thicker stockings doesn’t automatically make you care more about yiddishkeit. (To be honest I have no clue what 30 or 60 denier stockings look like.)

It has much more to do with your approach to keeping Torah. How observant are you of halacha? Adam lamakom and lechaveiro. That’s what frum really means. I do think that there is a level of objectivity. Someone who keeps Shabbos is more frum than someone who just has candlelit family dinner Friday night. It’s a nice thing, but it doesn’t make you frum.

However, there is judgment in the term as well. Humans like being able to categorize the people around them. Dress is external so we jump on that. I notice the conversation quickly turned into a tznius debate and no one asked if you open metal bottle caps on Shabbos. It’s a convenient heuristic but that doesn’t make it accurate.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:42 pm

paperflowers wrote:

This. It's not all about clothing all the time.

And it's not just bein adam lechavero and bein adam lamakom, either.

Chani and Shani may wear heavy tights of whatever denier, but they don't fast on minor fast days, even when not nursing or pregnant. Meanwhile, Lani's community doesn't require tights, but expects women to fast. So who's frummer?

It's easier (lazier) to let dress code stand in for observance, but it's inaccurate.

amother

Indigo

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:54 pm

paperflowers wrote:

A person who has a candlelit family dinner Friday night, but is machlel Shabbos, when its very clear Hashem is seeking from his followers Shabbos observance and a fairly good idea of what that means is provided in the Torah - can't basically by definition be Frum. That's easy.

I do wish we'd stop talking about tights - why - because as previously mentioned is a really poor indicator of anything.