We go on vacations and have a tuition break

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:24 am

Squishy wrote:

This is just your belief. Perhaps you convinced yourself that it's true. I don't know that this is a scientific fact.

Using your theory, you could justify spending money on a lot of other things besides tuition because we all need to feel better.

Tuition should be based on salary rather than disposal income because basing it on disposable income encourages people to tie up their money in fixed payments. Then people can do whatever they want with their disposable income after tuition.

You could go on your vacations. I could buy my sheital. Someone else could build could build an addition.

I understand what you are saying, but it would still be hard to enforce this fairly. You still have to account for different number of children, whether the children have special medical needs, whether elderly parents live with you, etc. Even have kids of both genders means greater expenses compared to kids all of one gender. Not to mention that salary isn't the only source of income. People get cash from wealthy parents, or have investments that aren't necessarily taxable, etc.

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:34 am

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

Life choices are not the same for everyone. For some, living and breathing a bit is very critical too. It's not like we have 1-2 kids and we pay their way and then we get to move on. We B"H have large families, and we pay their way for close to 30 years before they all grow up, and then we still marry them off as well. Having a bit of breathing space intertwined here and there, relaxing occasionally, or taking a bit of help, or buying a nice sheitel, etc., is very important to keep our energy flowing and maintaining a healthy mindset and body through the years. Now, not everyone needs it to the same degree, but every person is entitled to make their personal choice to create a personal space for themselves. All work and struggles with no outlet often leads to negative results. For you, doing what it takes to pay full tuition even with hardships gives you a peace of mind or a sense of self-respect, and that give you your personal satisfaction. For others, paying full tuition with hardships and no outlets would affect their self-respect and peace of mind, and they need something else to give them a taste of satisfaction during the drudgery of life.

And the tuition boards understand that. Some sort of quality of life is allowed for families. As long as its not overdone and done within reason, they don't begrudge anyone. Proof of that is the OP. She laid it all out on the table, and they seemingly accepted her offer without much negotiation. And if it honestly bothers you to the extent that you avoid any discussions about vacations, why are you begrudging yourself? Talk to your board, and they may wholeheartedly grant your request.

Yiddishe lifestyle is not easy. There are so many obligations and duties. Are we truly not allowed to have any outlet in life before we reach our 60s?

Does a yearly or twice yearly vacation really make people happier? Or is this mainly a question of having been told and believing that vacation makes people happier? Or perhaps feeling that one is deprived by not having vacation, even if that really isn't the case? How does going to Hershey Park really make one happier than going to Coney Island? Is it really that much better to hike in New Hampshire than to hike on Bear Mountain? To go to Cape Cod than to go to Jones Beach?

In my youth, I traveled a lot, and I got to explore different cities and cultures. It was wonderful and truly mind-expanding. I would go to every major museum in a city, and often many of the minor ones. I'd walk through all the neighborhoods of the city. I'd walk into cafes and talk to the locals to get to know them a little. Even then, I knew this was a wonderful luxury, and that I was lucky to do it for relatively little money. (I would tack on a couple of days to a conference abroad that work would send me to, so the total cost was a couple of days at a cheap hotel.) But first, I knew it was an amazing luxury and had no expectation of it becoming a regular part of my life. And second, I made the kind of effort to learn about other cultures that I'm not sure is usually a part of the frum vacation experience. Certainly not the trips I'm hearing about. I'm really not getting why it is seen to be so essential.

amother

Mauve

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:41 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

It is true that cutting out cleaning help probably saves more money than cutting out vacations. (At $10 an hour, 6 hours of cleaning help a week comes to $3120. Where I live OOT, cleaning help is at least $25 an hour, so you're talking about $7800 a year. Tangent: I think that the need for cleaning help can be minimized or eliminated by getting kids to help (THE most important factor! And teenage boys can help a lot!), lowering unrealistic standards of how your house needs to look, and making different lifestyle choices that don't really affect quality of life -- e.g., making one-pot or sheet pan meals instead of meals that need a lot of pans that need to be washed). But the discussion of trade-offs may not be relevant, because I'm not sure that the person who takes vacation doesn't have cleaning help and never buys bakery cake.

I would love cleaning help. The only reason we survive without it is because my husband's still a student and off on Friday so he cleans then (in addition to watching the baby who we don't pay for babysitting for on Fridays).
We've got at least 6 years until a kids old enough to do decent clean up (I'm not talking about picking up toys- we don't even try that more than once a week) , but our bathroom will need cleaning a whole lot sooner than that. I'm the queen of easy cooking and cleanup, but disposable pans and dishes add up too!
There's no time for real cleanup at night beyond the day's dishes and a load of laundry, and I get paid more per hour than a cleaning lady, so it's not worth dropping my hours too have time to clean.

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:42 am

Cheiny wrote:

That’s very admirable and don’t worry, Hashem sees and will reward you.

Thank you, Cheiny. Of course I hope that Hashem grants me the things I want, including good health for and nachas from my family, כן יהי רצון. But actually I'm not doing it for the s'char. And it's not that I am such a tzadeket. It's that at some level, the knowledge of taking something from others when I know I can cut back makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. If I couldn't cut back -- if, for example, I couldn't feed my family properly and pay full tuition -- I would certainly ask for a tuition break.

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:48 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

I hear you. Little kids do in fact make much more of a mess, and during those years I did have very necessary cleaning help! But by the time you are dealing with full tuition, usually your kids are just about ready to do serious help. Even six and seven year olds can help with clean up.

I have never really understood the hourly wage argument, though. I have a fixed salary, and I'm much too busy to start consulting and bring in more money. It's not like I can a few extra hours and pay a cleaning lady with that extra money, you know?

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:50 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I disagree. Tuition shld be based on salary not how ppl spend it. 2 ppl who earn same salary, one may own house with hgher mortgage and therefore get more deduction while the other who didnt buy the house she couldnt afford woukd rather use that money for savings for weddings to avoid future debt??? Why shld I get less deduction (from ppl with same salary)) just bec they decided to support kid in kollel or buy house they cant afford or have more kuds....???

Its unfair!!! The only special circumstances would be having kids with special needs?hence a lot of necessary addituonal expenses but thats not the same as owning house such that get more deduction bec of ur increased monthly mortgage bill. And, having more children without working full time shld also not be taken into account bec having kids requires one to take responsibility which for us includes tution even if its only 100 a month extra after babysitting, well, after more yrs, salary will increase....and even if not, a lot are sahms...

Cash from relatives??? Well, yes...this shld only be taken into account if using it for luxuries instead of tuition but ppl disagree about luxuries...and investments??? Well thats a need (unless someone is not paying enough tuituon n buying "nonneeds" insted)...for retirement, weddings, emergencies, or job loss chvs..

simcha2

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 7:52 am

OP,

I guess the question is this,

Why is paying tuition less important than paying rent?

If it was a choice of a vacations or being evicted, you certainly could live without the vacations.

Why isn't paying tuition (which many hold is a halachic imperative) given the same consideration?

You even wrote that you choose to send to the more expensive school, so it's not that you don't have a choice to spend less.

I think, for most people who could pay full and choose not to, it's because they are ok with someone else picking up their bill, and they know, no one is picking up their rent bill.

As I've written, everyone makes their own decisions. But at least do it honestly. Know that one of your neighbors is paying for your choices, frequently through huge mesiras nefesh.

So at least do it with your eyes wide open and give hakaras hatov to those people who make different choices, so that you can make yours

amother

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 8:17 am

simcha2 wrote:

Well said simcha 2 this thread was created to get honest feedback like yours ... to fill in what some were touching on.... yes we are able to send to a less expensive school but going into this school we were upfront with what we were ok with tuition wise. We do pay insurance and full taxes and I do scrimp in other areas to be able to go on these vacation ( ... our mortgage and taxes are without a doubt from the lowest end of our school and lowest end of the Jewish population homes in general ( including ppl who are renting small homes) the school tuition assistance request form is very very thorough from question about all extra income and saving to how much cleaning help.

amother

Mauve

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 8:56 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I would love a cleaning lady just 2 or 3 hours once a week to change all the beds, clean my bathroom and kitchen thoroughly, and maybe vaccum and wash the floor. None of those are really jobs a kid under 9 or 10 could do (except maybe the floors and vaccum). By the time my first kid hits 10 I could easily be paying tuition for 10,8,6 year olds in regular school 2 &4 in preschool and a babysitter maybe. I would not insist on cleaning help 3 times a week to pick up the toys- that's their job

I teach by period so I get to declare how many hours I want to work. I could tell them I want to finish early and come home and clean before the kids come home, but it's worth it to work the extra.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 10:47 am

If the committee decided, it's fine. But some people will be hurt and that is why there is so much resentment out there.

For example, we asked for a deduction so we can save up for an IVF cycle and a minivan (we live frugally OOT and don't have any debt other than mortgage) . We are told no. In other words, take out a loan to pay for those things. Totally fair, right. Those are not needs, but, they are very important wants. I agreed with them. My problem was a friend who had a smaller income than we do bought a house double the size, buys nice things, prepared food, cleaning ladies, throws parties, kids have all the coolest stuff out there , and because of this has debt was told yes. They have a discount. How does this makes sense? This is the cause of all the resentment for tuition committees. There isn't a fair system. My friend has a reduction so they can't run up more debt for fun while we can run up debt for a cycle.

P.S. My child ended up in a school that I felt was better and we were more than willing to pay full tuition because the school was kind, giving, and understanding. If we run into IVF pay troubles, they said to just call them and it's all ok. But, I got a job for 50k more than we thought I would so we afford full tuition. (I was graduating when we were asking for a discount and didn't know our future income.)

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 3:24 pm

Somewhere in this thread somebody mentioned a formula for determining how much tuition a family can/should be expected to pay. Some of the NY/NJ area Federations have tuition programs for "middle income" families--not really financial aid, and the definition of middle income is pretty wide for those purposes. I believe they basically say that a middle income family, however they define it (this starts with income levels that are too high for actual financial aid) should be paying about 18% of gross income in tuition for all of their kids. Schools that receive funds from these Federations then adjust those family tuition bills to stick within that range. I don't know what happens if you have kids in diff schools within that Federation area, or if you have kids both in and out of that area. If all your kids are school age, both parents must work full time to qualify, presumably unless somebody got laid off and is looking for work, and there are some other restrictions (net worth including retirement accounts and I think home equity of under $1M total).

Bottom line, they did a lot of research on this and the number they came up with was that 18% of gross income is what you should be able to pay in tuition.

Cheiny

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 3:28 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Don’t minimize your admirable ethics and morality, and sense of wanting to do what is truly honest and right. Of course when people don’t have enough for absolute necessities it’s understandable that they would need to take assistance but we all know people who are taking tuition breaks while going to hotels for Pesach and other such luxuries. You are an example that everyone can learn from and try to emulate.

Cheiny

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 3:30 pm

simcha2 wrote:

Well said,

Cheiny

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 3:33 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

I don't think people should share with others which family gets which tuition break, etc. it just causes envy and resentment. Each case is different... As far as IVF, can’t ypu get help from Bonei Olam and such organizations?