How hard are you obligated to work to pay full tuition?

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 1:17 pm

ectomorph wrote:

If the parents refuse to pay the child still deserves a Jewish education. They are jerks though.

We don't punish children for the sins of their parents.

As for girls - to paraphrase Rabbi Kotler, who will the boys marry? A community needs both genders to survive.

So what if our 10 families have to pay the teachers more in order to accommodate the 11th child? What if the teachers are charging according to the number of students? If you open a program for girls who don't have a school but you want to earn parnassa from it, what will you do about non-payers?

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 2:14 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

Why isn’t this 11th family collecting tzdaka from the community generally? Why is ‘carrying’ this family falling on the other 10?

Because ectomorph said that the shul Rav has ruled that they now constitute a day school that is affiliated with the shul and therefore can't turn away children whose parents either can't or won't pay. Their co-op can not be considered exclusive.
But unless the 11th child is an orphan or is raised by a single parent or there is a real situation there, why can't we make the parents fundraise?

amother

Pink

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 2:36 pm

southernbubby wrote:

So does that mean that if the 11th child is taken on vacation and given a first class bar or bas mitzvah party that the 10 original families have no right to expect payment? What defines this child as poor? What if he has the same standard of living as the 10 committed families but his parents simply feel entitled?

Is this hypothetical, or do you know an actual case of parents who demand to be part of the school and refuse to pay their way, yet take their child on vacation and give him an extravagant BM? I mean, I'm sure it's possible that this family exists somewhere. But it's obviously not a normal situation. The child probably should be considered a real chesed if that's how his parents behave in public.

ectomorph

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 2:41 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

So let's say I make a cool million a year, plus investment income. But I decide to live a lavish lifestyle. Two weeks in Hawaii in the winter; Europe in the summer; South America a couple of short jaunts in between. Clothes by Prada, Jil Sander, maybe some Vera Wang and Gucci. Shoes by Louboutin. And that's for the teens. My idea of a tichel to run errands is Hermes.

But not a penny for school. Hey, community, that's your job.

Do you think the community should pay for my kids?

The same as parents who are not religious and refuse to pay. If the child desires a Jewish education, we cannot deprive them.

You wouldn't be Jewish. I guarantee you have at least one ancestor that was the recipient of this in the past. People in the shtetl used to pool their money to hire a melamed, and every child was a part of such a system, even if their parents couldn't pay. That's why Jews have always had an incredible literacy rate, including among the poor.

Can this be abused? Of course. But would you feed a child whose parents refused to feed them? Of course.

Most schools try to balance the need to raise money with giving scholarships to kids who need it. It's always a balance, and it's easy to make mistakes in this area.

I'm sure there are theoretically people who totally abuse this. I have been lucky enough not to personally meet them. Every one I know is trying their hardest to pay tuition.

amother

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:15 pm

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

I agree with this as well. I personally feel that having two full time working parents is not fair to the kids and can cause a host of other problems.
To answer the OP, first of all talking with your rav can help you qualify your priorities and responsibilities. These are all Torah values (paying for Torah education for your children, self sufficiency, balanced with a woman/one parent being home with the kids) and someone knowledgeable in halacha and hashkafa should be able to help. I also think that the attitude here is super important. Paying for a Torah education for your children, and keeping your word when you've agreed to pay a certain amount, should be super important to you. It should show in your interactions with the school and your kids should be able to see that this is what you value. If one of you is working full time and one part time (again, my opinion on what's appropriate hishtadlus) and you're doing your best and you need a tuition break so as not to go in to debt, that's fine, go for it without feeling guilty. But it shouldn't be that the attitude from the get go is that you'll just not work and get a big tuition break, no problem, not take this seriously, get as many breaks as possible and then go spend the money on more expensive/luxury items. The school shouldn't have to fight with you to get the money you owe them, you shouldn't getting brand new cars before paying tuition, going to a Pesach hotel, etc (I understand that to some people the things I'm listing are not luxuries but I'm giving my opinion on a general, not case by case, basis).

this conversation got very side tracked.

I do want to get back to question at hand and thank the few that actually adressed it.

sienna- thanks -my take away from your post is 2 very good points.

1) its important to discuss this with a rav- not that its a halachic question that we have to. more that its a hashkafic questions. we see clearly how everyone considers different things luxuries/ necessities/ possibly necessities.

EVERYONE has different standards and EVERYONE has different needs. no 2 people are alike. I live without many things that many consider a must. yet to tell someone they should do without because I do- is extremely immature and makes no sense.

if we live our life according to every annon posters judgement- we would go crazy.

which is why- I think when the time comes- I would discuss with a rav- and if he sees nothing wrong with my lifestyle- I dont care what people post on ima- I feel ZERO guilt.

2) I think theres a big difference between being honest and open about income and expenses and having the tuition comittee agree to it and paying that amount

as opposed to those- who dont pay what they agree to pay- thats a different story.

im still not understanding why the first scenario has any reason to feel guilty ( other than because imamothers decide its their job to judge her.)

amother

Slateblue

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:20 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Yes. And you are a member of the community - so as a member of the community you pay.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:25 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

I'm not on a soapbox.

Honestly - I don't even understand the question "how hard are you obligated to work".

Are you really asking - how many hours a day should you work?

Why am I harping on this? Because of this:

"most people ( a few may get lucky) only earn that much (250K) after years of schooling and/or hard work."

Reality is - with both schooling and hard work many people won't be able to achieve 250K a year income. I think that is what you are saying... and this is a problem for the community generally if 250K a year is required to live the 'average frum life'.

I don't think that this was the OP's point. She wasn't commenting on the utter and complete unsustainability of the frum lifestyle. She was just saying that even with a couple working hard--and possibly making as much as $250K--they could still struggle with paying tuition. Would that couple also be attacked for daring to ask for a tuition break? Because on this thread and others on Imamother, it looks like people are vilified for daring to ever ask for a break.

It's like, פת במלח תאכל ומים במסורה תשתה ועל הארץ תישן וחיי צער תחיה- and to pay full tuition you shall labor...

amother

Cyan

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:31 pm

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

Hypothetically, I would be happy to take a communist approach to paying for Jewish education: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Even though I would be one of the people putting in more than receiving, I would be happy to do it if I felt that 99% of community members were similarly participating in good faith, I.e. doing their best (within reason) to earn money for the communal education pool and, if unable to cover their full costs, taking only what they needed to cover that gap. That condition isn't present in my community currently, and probably isn't in the vast majority of communities.

I think that such a high level of mutual engagement and trust could be possible to achieve in a small community, but it's very challenging. I am not sure it would be possible at all to scale it to a larger community.

Communism doesn't work in a macrocosm, and it won't work in a microcosm, either. People are selfish.

amother

Turquoise

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:40 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

But is the community required to pay for the Torah education of those who are poor by choice ... like those in kollel, for example, or other families where there's only one income by choice?

"Many even say grandparents" -- I think that's one of the most entitled things I've ever seen on Imamother...

I live in a very yeshivish community, and the amount of people I know who are still in kollel when they have multiple children in school I can count on one hand.

And yes, some say that grandparents should help as well. I'm not sure why it's entitled... almost everyone I know expects to get help from grandparents either clothing or help with a down payment, or other things... only on imamother does everyone pay their own way themselves Smile

amother

Burlywood

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:41 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Not my opinion, a halachic source.
https://judaism.stackexchange......ation

"The Aruch HaShulchan (יורה דעה · סימן רמה) discusses further details. People who could afford it would hire their own tutors for their sons. Everyone had to pay some kind of tax to support "Talmud Torahs" where poor kids and orphans would learn. If someone wealthier wanted to send his son to the Talmud Torah, he would have to pay extra tuition on top of the general tax he already payed.

"We can force people to pay for their son's education and for the communal education. If a father cannot pay, we can even force the grandfather to pay for the education of his grandson."

amother

Cyan

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:48 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

I'm surprised about that first bit. It seems like lots of people here plan on being in kollel indefinitely. They also judge anyone who doesn't share that plan as less than them.

It's not entitled to expect grandparents to help out?!

Yes, parents often try to help their kids out financially as much as they can. Their kids have no right whatsoever to expect that kind of help. They can hope for it, be grateful for it, and show their gratitude to their parents, but to be entitled to it? Nope, nope, nope.

amother

Slateblue

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:48 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Okay.

I don’t really give much thought to the ‘imamother opinion’. Every family circumstance is different. Every school tuition model is different as well.

As I tell my daughter “we do the right thing”.

We should all merit to have more than enough income to cover our needs and wants.

amother

Turquoise

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:55 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Who are the lots of people that you know who plan on being in kollel indefinitely? Where do they live? Like I said, I know very, very few.

Like I said, once a family has multiple school age children, the father is working at some sort of job. Being a Rav, Rebbe or mashgiach is a job! And many do go into regular jobs as well. It's either someone with a huge amount of background money, or someone very, very dedicated who is willing to live on bread and water, who stay in kollel (forever). But they're very much the minority.

And I don't know anyone who thinks that grandparents MUST help out. Literally no-one. Some do, just like some help their children with clothing or a down payment or whatever.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:55 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

Which was essentially the OP's point, I believe. She was pulling from several recent threads about tuition and giving a (more) extreme example to prove a point... that there is no shame in asking for a tuition break. Whatever some anonymous woman (or not) on Imamother yells at you, you know you best, and you do you best. So if all the wonderful women here are condemning you to the fires of Gehinnom for daring to ask for a tuition break, but you know that this is what you need to do for your family, then go ahead and do it with a clear conscience.

Amen!

amother

Cyan

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:57 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Okay. I'm not at the age yet where people have multiple kids in school--maybe one, max two (I think really one). So I don't know what will be when that happens. But I've heard enough judgmental comments to know that that's what the plan is...

amother

Slateblue

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 3:58 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

I took OP literally genuinely asking questions, rather than making a point.