How hard are you obligated to work to pay full tuition?

amother

Gold

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 9:32 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

I was just talking with someone from Cleveland last night. Since there are now state subsidies for tuition they have gotten a big influx of new people! I believe this is true in Cincinatti as well (makes sense, they're both in Ohio!) and Indiana.

These are some of the options to be considered!

I live in one of these communities. The vouchers are helpful to people who need help closing the tuition gap, but the voucher program becomes unhelpful to the community as a whole when it attracts
a disproportionate number of people (as it appears to have in my community) who can't or won't pay any tuition at all.

One of the conditions of accepting vouchers, is that the school cannot collect any additional tuition from families under a certain income threshold. This effectively makes school "free" for those families, apart from some minor fees. But it's terrible for the school's overall financial sustainability when the balance of the student body shifts to a large majority of non tuition payers because the vouchers are less than half the tuition. And those of us who can pay full tuition and more aren't necessarily interested in subsidizing an influx of people who've moved to the community for the "free" tuition.

amother

Black

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 11:08 am

My husband and I both have fairly well paying jobs. I work whats considered full time in my field but less hours than others. I make about 100k. My husband was making $80k but hours cut significantly. We have two kids, living in expensive area, rent is close to $2k a month (for a small apartment) and have to pay a lot in babysitting to cover our work schedules (thing working every Sunday and late evenings). I honestly don't know how we will pay tuition and thats with professional degrees and decent income. But the numbers look like we're making it. Application asked for gross income. That's not close to what we come home with, I don't know why they do that. We were denied assistance. Working more is too much for me. God didn't give me kids to have the babysitter raise them. The days I work I come home long after bedtime and some days I leave before they awake. Working more would be giving up any time of being a parent. For what? To pay more taxes and manage to pull off the tuition bill? I'd rather quit and stay home and get a subsidy.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 11:12 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

I totally hear you. I don't understand why vouchers work that way. According to the numbers in NYC, it costs an average of $15K per year to educate one student. It's probably lower in Cleveland, but still, the amount of the vouchers should reflect the amount that it costs to educate a child. I'm sure it's actually way below.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 11:14 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

Get a good education. Work hard, Aim to make a good living.

Don’t buy a home that’s unaffordable.

The thing is, a good education and great career doesn't usually cut it, since you end up paying through the roof in babysitting--and then don't get a tuition break because your gross income is too high, when you're just barely managing.

An income of less than $250K with a few kids makes someone poor middle class. Seriously- you're right in the sweet spot where everyone takes your money and considers you wealthy, so you have nothing left at the end. Government, school, etc.

keym

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 11:29 am

Imo all of this depends on what kind of scholarship arrangements the school has.
Ive seen many different types.
-Where the quoted price is more than it costs to educate a child and the tuition committee expects you to haggle down.
-Where the tuition committee will only agree to tuition reductions if they know where the surplus is coming from.
-tuition committees who feel pressured and bullied to give reductions and then are scrambling to find the rest of the money.
-what sources of alternative money does the school get- federation, government grants, endowments, parental donations
-how behind on salaries is the school.
-how involved you as a parent are in fundraising and helping. When we've asked for tuition reductions, its always more forthcoming if were more involved parents-making calls for the dinner, selling tickets for the auction, etc.

Once you have this information, imo its really a shayla for a Rav. Its a chiyuv to teach or pay to teach Torah to your kids. So a Rav really has to work with you on the Life Balance.

amother

Slateblue

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 12:07 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

Fine.

I don't think the solution is - when you are in the 'planning stage' of life to just give up and not try. You need to make an effort. That means - look forward - figure out how you can provide for your families needs - and go for it.

If it doesn't cut it - you did the best you could.

I'll add to that - if the plan is to open a business, rather than be an employee - then also plan to get good mentorship, and relevant business education (formal or informal).

amother

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 1:52 pm

keym wrote:

great post- thanks!

I was of the impression that most schools fit the bolded. maybe im wrong.

(im referring to litvish world. the chasidish schools seem to have very different system)

keym

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 1:57 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

great post- thanks!

I was of the impression that most schools fit the bolded. maybe im wrong.

(im referring to litvish world. the chasidish schools seem to have very different system)

Ive seen all types. But then I guess it also depends how much the quoted price is and how "frills" the school is. Ive heard prices from 7k-12k a kid and the price for education can run from 6k-20k a kid. So....

amother

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 2:16 pm

keym wrote:

true- like everything in life every situation is different. everyone would have to make a decision based on their circumstances.

for arguments sake lets assume the "full" tuition is a lot more than "cost per student"

amother

Tangerine

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 2:16 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I personally don't care about that because I think the entire concept is some new, American one. Most of your Jewish education comes from your home. If you want a separate, intensive shiur after school or on the weekends for boys to learn gemara, then I'd pay extra for that. I frankly don't see what is so special about the Jewish education being taught, anyways. You could easily cram it into an hour per day over less than an entire school career. It's a very big nisayon for me to send my children to frum schools.

Want a real live experiment to the very situation you describe? There are plenty of statistics. And they don't end well. Bais Yaakov, as the most celebrated example, wasn't created on a whim.

"New, American one".
You don't know history. In fact, the concept of public education is actually a "new" one. Most people were tasked with doing it on their own, and in their own insulated homes, all day, where they were segregated from most of society. In the United States, for example, public education only became mandatory 100 years ago, in select states.

In our city, we have hundreds of Jewish children go to public school most of the day, and a Talmud Torah situation as well for either on the weekend or after school. I talked to the founder, and you know what? These children know nothing. NOTHING. They barely know about how to read Hebrew, and some of these children are from frum homes!

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 2:33 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Private school teachers start around $65k and science and math teachers with experience can easily make upwards of $150k annually. The problem is that most frum schools cannot really offer the private school education because they cannot be as selective about students and need to cater to families who cannot afford it hence tuition breaks and not a large donor base. My colleagues childrens school costs upwards of $35-40k annually and less than 10% of people get scholarships, but her kids are getting a superior education. In many ways, I'd rather send my kids to a school like that and hope they stay frum by example..

It isn't just the high tuition. (Say you taught in such a school and got a break.) Do you have any idea how crazy the gashmiyus is? The vacations? The clothes? And a lot of these schools have a culture where they really own your kid - the practices, etc. Forget about it eating into whatever time you would have wanted to spend on your child's Judaica education - there just won't be time.

I know people dealing with these schools. Don't have any FOMO.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 2:50 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

It's possible that what your sons would get with a good tutor one on one would be close to what they'd get the whole week.
But
- they'd have to be committed to those few hours every Sunday
- they'd need to commit to learning daily on their own.
Because you don't want their Torah to be compartmentalized and sterile and academic.

amother

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 3:12 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

slateblue -thanks for coming back and clarifying

when people say flippantly- " you should get an education and a good job so you can pay tuition"- they sound rather out of touch with reality.

20 years ago maybe. today- thats a far cry from reality.

can we get back to opening question.

if someone works hard earns an honest living- lets say something around the 200k range- and still cant afford full tuition- are they doing anything wrong?

amother

Silver

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 3:39 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

great post- thanks!

I was of the impression that most schools fit the bolded. maybe im wrong.

(im referring to litvish world. the chasidish schools seem to have very different system)

I used to work in a yeshivish Brooklyn boys yeshiva. Tuition was around 11k. That was the actual cost of educating a child. That did not include capital improvements for the school. If everyone paid in full the fundraising department would still exsist but it would be much smaller as they wouldn’t have to fundraise for all the kids on scholarship.

I have since moved to a different tri state location and work in the business office of a “jpf” high school. Tuition is around 17k. Same story here that if everyone paid full school would just need to fundraise for building improvements and not for scholarships. One exception though is that on top of the 17k there is a mandatory 2k fee for the scholarship fund which is tax deductible as its mandatory charity and not going to cover the cost of your kids tuition. Point is that your full tuition is not covering my kids scholarships. Your payment to the scholarship fund is though so thank you!

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 4:22 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I know that. I'm ok with compartmentalization. Right now my kids, outside of school, have music lessons 3 times a week, Chinese 3 times a week, karate 5 days a week, mathematics and science 3 days a week, wordworking once a week, art history twice a week and english language 4 days a week.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 5:49 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

My FIL grew up in a city where there was no yeshiva, only Talmud Torah (basically the model you're describing). Out of everyone he knew, my FIL could count on one hand the amount of children who remained frum. And they all came from frum homes.

amother

Linen

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:19 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

Get a good education. Work hard, Aim to make a good living.

Don’t buy a home that’s unaffordable.

We do that, but still dont afford full tution. We also dont go on vacation, dont have cleaning help....etc.

Laiya

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:27 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Historically, most people who left frumkeit did not go to yeshiva.

amother

Linen

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:46 pm

keym wrote:

In nyc some schools charge 12 to 15k but while public schools are paying more than 20k per student, they also pay staff more normal salaries and special ed kids get smaller classes which most yeshivas dont provide even for full tuitiin parents.

The thing ismost yeshiva parents dont have a say in how the school budgets and gives deductions and .....and most schools are not transparent. But, even in a school where majority of parents are dentists, lawyers, drs, nursing home owners...etc and most are paying full tuition do u really think the school wont still fundraise through a dinner and "support learn a day".....?

They will because schools can always use more $ for technology, upkeep of building etc....so tution will never be enough...which is why I think the whole system is corrupt especially when many ppl think its ok to be sahms and get large tuition deductions.