American vs Israeli Abortion Laws

daagahminayin

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 3:20 pm

I found this article interesting: https://www.theatlantic.com/id.....4151/

Which system do you think works best based on the interests of halacha? Which would you choose (or which aspects of a system would you choose) for your country if you had the choice?

(May we never have to personally experience either system!)

ora_43

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 12:46 am

I'm not sure.

The committees (here in Israel) are basically a joke. I've never heard of a woman carrying a pregnancy to term because she was denied a permit to abort. Like the article says, a woman can always just say she had an affair, and boom - permit.

And private abortions seem to only be illegal in theory.

I think I'd keep more or less Israel's current system, but with no committee approval needed in the first two months, and no abortion in the last three months unless the pregnancy threatens the mother's health/life, and/or isn't viable and will affect the mother's fertility.

And with much less pressure on doctors to bear responsibility for finding birth defects/illnesses. As it is, doctors feel like they have to bring up the possibility of abortion to the last possible second. Literally, I met someone whose doctor brought up the option of abortion while she was giving birth.

To be fair, there was something seriously wrong. But that's the problem, that doctors are carrying too much responsibility for the possibility of something being wrong. And not enough responsibility for the possibility that they'll scare parents into aborting a wanted child with a manageable genetic issue.

sushilover

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:14 am

I would say that discussing elective late term abortions, (especially when there is no serious health concern) is inhumane.

But then again, in all of our past discussions about abortion on this site, I have been informed that unborn babies are not human.

ora_43

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:31 am

sushilover wrote:

I would say that discussing elective late term abortions, (especially when there is no serious health concern) is inhumane.

If you're talking about the situation in Israel, here late-term abortion is only available if there's a serious health concern.

sushilover

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:35 am

ora_43 wrote:

If you're talking about the situation in Israel, here late-term abortion is only available if there's a serious health concern.

Legally available.
Up to twice as many abortions are done without approval.

In the U.S. 30 - 80 % of late term abortions are elective.

DrMom

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 2:41 am

ora_43 wrote:

If you're talking about the situation in Israel, here late-term abortion is only available if there's a serious health concern.

Not true.

I was offered an abortion in my 8th month for a very minor concern (which turned out not to be an issue at all).

My obgyn seemed to be a fanatical eugenicist.

ora_43

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 2:53 am

DrMom wrote:

Not true.

I was offered an abortion in my 8th month for a very minor concern (which turned out not to be an issue at all).

My obgyn seemed to be a fanatical eugenicist.

There's a difference between an obgyn saying it's an option (probably just to cover themselves in case of a "wrongful birth" lawsuit) and actually getting a committee's approval.

ora_43

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 2:55 am

The article does say the committee approves most cases, but without more information it's hard to say if that's because the committee is mostly just rubber-stamping late-term abortions (although I'd say 7% is a significant rejection rate), or because women who discover a non-serious issue are likely to decide on their own that it's not serious, leaving mostly the serious cases (eg tay sachs) to go before the committee.

amother

Purple

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 3:54 am

The committee is also problematic in other ways.
Many women resent having to say or lie that they had an affair just in order to get an early term abortion.

I imagine if they ever get divorced this lie could be held against them.

jerusalem90

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 4:02 am

I've heard that the abortion committee in Israel has the real purpose of making sure a woman isn't forced into an abortion by her partner/family. She talks to the committee alone, so if she tells them she doesn't actually want one, then they don't give permission.

sequoia

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 4:47 am

jerusalem90 wrote:

That sounds reasonable.

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 4:55 am

DrMom wrote:

Not true.

I was offered an abortion in my 8th month for a very minor concern (which turned out not to be an issue at all).

My obgyn seemed to be a fanatical eugenicist.

I think it's not the individual obgyn but the "culture". 2 days before giving birth I had an ultrasound which showed a malformation that somehow had not showed up on the earlier routine ultrasounds. I was urged to speak to a geneticist in the hospital and she spoke about considering abortion...
My baby was born 2 days later, premature and with a problem that needed surgery, but today, several years later, I've got a cute, fully functional dc with very minor, manageable issues. Would have been absurd and horrible to abort! I still shudder thinking of it.
(But I can theoretically imagine parents with a very different mindset who would take it to court and sue about that they now have a child with those issues).

amother

Ivory

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 5:14 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Yes. I have two friends in Israel who were expecting a child with a cleft lip. Both were advised to have an abortion, at EVERY ultrasound/check-up appointment, up to their ninth month.

DrMom

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 5:21 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Perhaps. I switched obgyns after that pregnancy and the next one was much less hysterical.

sushilover

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 8:46 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

Yes. I have two friends in Israel who were expecting a child with a cleft lip. Both were advised to have an abortion, at EVERY ultrasound/check-up appointment, up to their ninth month.

This is true.
Anyone who believes that there aren't a significant number of healthy or mostly healthy babies aborted in both America and the U.S. - sorry, that's wishful thinking.

These fetuses can hear, recognize, and be soothed by their parents' voices. Their heartbeat slows down when they hear a familiar story. They sleep, and most researchers believe they dream. They can cry , without sound obviously, when in pain.

princessleah

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 2:54 pm

I don't understand something-- if in Israel, so many religious matters are controlled by the Rabbanut (e.g., marriage, divorce, conversions), why isn't this?
Like why is a pregnancy from infidelity permitted if halacha would not permit it?

2gether

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 3:13 pm

forgive me ignorance, but how do you abort in 8th or 9th mo.? Doesn't it just result in a full term live baby? do they use drugs to kill it before what I assume is a C section??
Doesn't giving up for adoption make more sense at that point, unless its a potentionally severely sick child?