I know I'm doing it wrong. HELP!

Laiya

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:34 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

This child is testing you - by backing down on a punishment you are encouraging her to keep on testing.

I would tell her if she deliberately disobeys (keeps disturbing) Taking One Toy away for a week. If she throws tantrum - take away another one. This child must learn that you're the boss. She will keep walking all over you if you keep letting her get away with it. Nothing terrible will happen to her if she loses her toy for a week - don't give in!

What is the goal of parenting? Obedience?

I don't think that this approach of Showing who's boss works, if your goal is to have a positive relationship with your dc, have your dc develop their own inner compass and ethics, develop their ability to exercise self-control on their own with no threat from Mommy in sight, and have empathy for others.

And, if a child's natural midah is to be stubborn, as OP described, you don't want that squelched, you want it channeled. It takes lots of stubborn persistence in order to accomplish almost anything in life, although it does make parenting more challenging. Don't take that inborn gift away.

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:46 am

Wow OP, we have daughter's the same age who seem to be of similar temperament.

I find that the biggest thing that gets me places with my DD is giving her choices. NO POWER STRUGGLES no direct commands. Do you want to do A or B. Right now Mommy needs to get this letter done, do you want to do XYZ till I finish or do you want to spend some quiet time.

I'm wondering why you are working with your child at home. My daughter would have a hard time with that, she would be restless and wanting attention or entertainment. It would not work well for me.

I agree with Laiya that obedience is not the goal of parenting. Raising a healthy child who will B"EH in the future be a functioning and capable adult is really the goal. I feel like my child B"AH has tremendous strengths (oh boy! I can especially feel those strengths sometimes when I am up against them) and I want her to be able to tap into those B"EH when she grows up. She can accomplish great things with her stamina, of which she has way more than I do. She could be a school principal or a CEO with her capabilities, as long as she learns to use her Kochos positively.

I find that what feeds my relationship with my child is a huge amount of love, lots of empathy, etc...even when I hold her responsible for certain actions, I try to validate her side of the story, and understand how she got to the choices she makes....she knows I'm rooting for her even when she has to apologize to someone, or own up to something....

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:49 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

YIKES

no words. All I can say is, good luck raising emotionally healthy children.

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:53 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Wow, I must be really, really, really doing it wrong for you to ask me that.

Yes, I've read many parenting books. No, never went to a course.

Just want to say, and then I'll get off my soap box, that there's no substitute for a parenting course, IMVHO. It saved my parenting life. There's nothing like the live give and take, the support and examples from other parents, and the role playing done with the instructor for real life issues you are dealing with.

I took a parenting course in 3 levels with Mrs. Leah Trenk of Lakewood, about 10 years ago. It was life changing for me. There are many good instructors out there, and I highly recommend taking this step. You will not regret it OP.

dankbar

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:57 am

Its seems like this is a power struggle either because of her nature or because she is pre-teen & trying to gain some independence. You need to avoid power struggles.
Ruchel Weiss's courses helped me when I was dealing with such a type of child.
It focuses on replacing the negative connections with positive ones.
Another thing, think of the cause, was she bored when you were engaged with something else?
Why not be proactive & either give her something to be busy with before you start your work or tell her that now you need your time & she needs to find entertainment/friends for this half hour on her own. You will not engage with her at this time, and you need to ignore when she tries to disrupt you. If she will not be getting a reaction, she will stop the nonsense.
After the half hour is up & your work is done you can start talking to her again.

amother

Blue

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:06 am

Hi, this tip isn't about your parenting, it's for you, to help you feel less stressed. In the throes of a situation like this, it's easy to fall into balck and white thinking: my daughter is so strong willed. I am a bad parent. I never have problems with my other kids. When you catch yourself thinking like this, try to moderate it, because it's more likely true that your daughter and you sometimes don't communicate well, that she has trouble handling frustration in certain situations, that you can handle typical parenting situations but need advice for some other situations. by adding nuance to your thoughts, you will feel less frustrated and be able to better project calm authority

mommy201

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:17 am

torquoise wrote:

I would strangle her. I think you're really nice for just taking a toy away. Yay for you!

OK in all seriousness, I think it took huge amounts of patience to deal with what you dealt with, saying it nicely and imposing "payment" (in toys) for unacceptable behavior. I think you're an awesome mom!

I don't really have tons of advice, since I'm not a super-duper parent myself. One thing I noticed that seems to be left out of a lot of parenting books/courses is Sarah Chana Radcliffe's 80/20 rule.
Give 80% positive.
That will allow for 20% negative, which comes naturally when parenting (an EASY child.)
Feel free to start with totally different percentages, any change is great!!

The positive that I try to do with my kids (when I'm feeling energetic, okay emotionally, not busy, not tired, and already did self-care. Ok that's like almost never, so please don't feel bad if you can't do this)
Making time to shmooze - 5 minutes
If they're ready for bed at a certain time, they earn 5-10 minutes of shmoozing time.
Smile at them, and give a compliment, especially when they did something well
Dance with them. Piggy back rides. Fling them onto the couch (a favorite in my house)
Occasional dates, just with Mommy - usually includes a walk and something very cheap (slurpee, Rita's) but I try to keep the cheap thing out. Grocery shopping counts as a date too.
Play games with them!!! (I hate hate hate sitting on the floor and playing with my kids. It is so boring and I hate it. But when we do it, the effect is MAGIC!! Happy, content kids that fight less. Wow!) It is amazing what a few minutes of game-playing can do for your kid.
Look at baby pictures together, and of course tell him/her how cute he/she was, and some funny stories.

Hope this helps!! You are dealing with a child that is not easy, and give yourself a pat on the back for every single thing you do for her, even if she doesn't appreciate it.

Hugs!!

Only getting things when they earned it or getting quality time when they deserve it, kind of shows that love is conditional. We don't want our children to have to earn our love, we want them to rest in our love. OUr love is always there, I would even go to say that if they are difficult we have to show them more love more easily. All these fun things you mentioned above are great, but the child shouldnt have to earn it. You do it before the fact and connect and empathize with them and watch everything change.

mommy201

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:23 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

Check out John Rosamund's "The Well Behaved Child" - you can read excerpts on Amazon that explains his method - which is old fashioned punishment (not hitting) which will work if parents are not too wimpy to follow through.

This "new style" parenting is making parents indecisive - and some kids will take big advantage. You are not a bad parent if your kid cries when punished - some kids won't learn any other way.

Strongly disagree with the above bolded. We all know that control comes from ego which really stems from fear or lack of of control. Control may seem to get instant results but we all know its not a healthy or long term option ( what happens when the kid is older and we lose that control - then we have nothing. If we didnt work on the relationship aspect when they were young, then we have neither control nor a relationship with them when they are older)
The correct way to parent is to be comfortable and relaxed and in control of yourself, but not in control of others. There are more effective and better long term ways to parent then using punishments (which will only damage relationships).

torquoise

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:29 am

mommy201 wrote:

Each thing I mentioned is unearned, except the extra shmoozing time in bed. Not sure where you got that idea.

mommy201

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:39 am

torquoise wrote:

Each thing I mentioned is unearned, except the extra shmoozing time in bed. Not sure where you got that idea.

sorry I reread your post. I guess I also read, "give them a compliment, especially when they do something well" and I took that too mean like when they deserve it.

You mentioned some nice points I just don't believe in measuring the positivity or negativity. Obviously, we try our hardest to be positive and there will obviously be some negativity as we are all human and make mistakes. But that's what the negativity should be - the human mistakes, not like planned negative discipline. Discipline doesnt have to be negative.

I think it's just a different mindset I'm coming with, but if we all try to work on ourselves, (not working on our kids) then we are all stepping in the right direction.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 11:26 am

Does the child feel that she is given enough attention to fill her emotional needs from you? It may be bid for attention, children who feel lacking arent particular about whether its positive or negative.

Some children need more or less attention / emotional nurturing. It is very subjective to their experience. If it might be this, if you address the cause and be consistant and logical about the effects of negative seeking behaviors it should slowly ease up on those types of happenings.

amother

Beige

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 11:34 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

I used Rosamund’s methods and although it worked in the short term, it did not improve my relationships with my children. Instead it worsened them.

Relationships and behaviors improved when I used radical acceptance parenting methods.

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 12:33 pm

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

Taking a toy away for a week IS backing down, because that wasn't OP's threat, anyway. Her threat was to give the toy away. So nothing is gained by this.

Your right it is backing down so OP should carry it out.
Parents should be careful not to make exteme threats that they won't carry out - like you will never ride your bike again. Decide in ADVANCE a punishment that is severe enough to "hurt" but not so severe that parents don't carry out. Giving away toy is too severe for Mom to carry out - but taking away a toy for a week is nopermanent loss and can be carried out.

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 12:37 pm

Yes, OBEDIENCE is ONE of the goals of parenting.
Obedience is a MITZVAH in the Torah, like keeping Shobbos or Kosher - it is not optional.
This should be taught to children. I think most schools do teach this to children but parents should say if necessary it is an AVEIRAH not to listen to a mother or father.

The goal of Torah is to teach OBEDIENCE to Hashem. We can't skip mitzvos because we are "not in the mood".

THIS is one of the reasons why so many children are OTD - they wre never taught that they HAD to obey their parents, and they think they don't have to obey Hashem either.
Kids are not punished if they deliberately disobey, so Kids think their is no "onesh" from Hashem either.

dankbar

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:09 pm

Best bubby today times have changed. You need to be mechanach today more With ahava than yirah, it also says to teach them to go in ways of Hashem, so that when they get older they wont leave the ways. It is mot about obedience, I am boss, I am older so I have more control & you are little are fearful so you abide. Nothing is accomplished, because when you are not on top of their head, they dont begin to know what to do.
Instead if you build them up, teach them right from wrong, give them some independence while they are growing up to learn to make their own decisions ( hopefully the right ones) build their confidence with lots of love, they will hopefully grow up to be ehrlich & oivdei Hashem & will want to emulate your way & go in your path.
otoh, if they associate religion with cruelty, force, they will most probably drop it.
In Torah it says to be mechabed, respect parents & fear them like respect, no cutting in, sitting in their places. If its forced its not real respect its just fear of punishment. We want our kids to have the feeling on own, to think by themselves that mommy might be thirsty now, let me bring her a cup of water not bring me that cup of water because I said so.

keym

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:14 pm

dankbar wrote:

Dankbar, I love how you said that.

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:25 pm

dankbar wrote:

Of course you should show your child love by giving lots of attention, gi - buy child nice clothing she chooses, making suppers she likes.
But love does not mean letting a child be CRUEL to her parents - and an 11 y.oo. who is DELIBERATELY annoying her mother is being CRUEL.
Mothers who let their kids get away this this selfishness and cruelty are raising a bunch of NARCISSISTS who will make terrible spouses because they have no consideration or EMPATHY for anyone else. And this 11 y.o. has no EMPATHY for her mother who does so much for her. That's scary!