S/O Foster Care System

Ravenclaw

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 11:57 pm

Ok I read through all the studies. Problems:

1) the study included orphanages, not just foster families.

2) the study clearly says it is leaving out severe abuse of the equation

3) it includes abuse of one foster child to another

Anyway, I am going to have to stop arguing because we are just going in circles. But just to reiterate: I am all for family preservation. But going from that to never removing a child without a full criminal trial and EVIDENCE (like, huh? The kid is gonna pull out a whole case file that he compiled throughout childhood? Why is his bearing witness not evidence enough?)...
...that’s a stretch.

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 12:12 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

Everybody agrees that severe abuse you remove the child. The question is should CPS remove child where the situation is NOT "severe". 85% of CPS removal is for "neglect" and much of it is NOT severe.

Abuse of one foster child to another counts. One of the reasons why foster care is so dangerous is the risk of abuse not only from foster parents, but also from other foster children. That is why NATURAL HOME is usually safer than foster care.

Don't understand why anyone has a problem that there should be EVIDENCE before government takes children away. You want children to be taken away without government having to show evidence?

If a child testified to parent's abuse and a child stated s/he wanted to be live in another home, that is enough evidence for me - and would be for a jury. But that is extremely rare - nearly all children do NOT want to be taken from home and are forcibly dragged away crying hysterically. (That is not proof the home is safe).

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 12:51 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

Have you personally witnessed kids being dragged away and screaming? Especially since you say "nearly all" which I highly doubt.
And no, one sided slanted news articles that show only the highly subjective pov of the parents don't count. (Before you start copying and pasting another one of those over the top stories.)

Listen to the words of a former CPS worker on how CPS hurts children. Link: https://www.change.org/p/marco.....00035

"I’m Guilty of Child Kidnapping for the State

My name is Carlos Morales and I was an investigator for Child Protective Services, and I’m guilty. I’m guilty of what many other American Citizens are guilty of, which is the belief that CPS has the child’s best interest in mind when it commits atrocity after atrocity. I’m guilty of working for an organization that has hampered freedom throughout the United States, and has caused millions of parents to live in fear. I’m guilty of working for an agency that has done more to carry out the war on drugs than the war against child abuse. I’m guilty of working for an agency that has kidnapped children, thrown them in to foster homes, and destroyed their lives. I’m guilty of working for CPS. Within CPS, I did not help children, I hurt. I did not protect families, I helped ruin them. I did not work to benefit society, instead I helped imprison it. Child Protective Services is an agency which damages and controls society from within, by allowing the State to take over the lives of children. As family judge Bryan Lindsey put, “There is no system ever devised by mankind that is guaranteed to rip husband and wife or father, mother and child apart so bitterly than our present Family Court System.”

The vile actions and justification for Child Protective Services and the State in general can be summarized in just one sentence: The inhumanity of humanity knows no bounds when systems are put in place which justifies their injustices. When examining the tyranny by those who’ve worked for the state, when exposing the evils of institutionalized dogmas, when grasping the absurdity of social welfare through collective imprisonment, appeasers of authority will assert that those working within the government are “just doing their job.” No doubt this is true, and a certain part of me believed that while I was a foot soldier for the kidnapping agency, Child Protective Services. When I began working for the agency I had the highest of hopes, I believed I was working for the “best interest of the child.” Now that term haunts me, for all those that speak for the “best interest of the child” – whether that be the police, politicians, pundits, propagandists, abusive parents, and public school teachers – are the least likely to ask the child what they actually want in their life. This is the coercive paternalistic nature of the State, and is at the core of central planners that are innately tyrannical with their progressive tirades that are backed by the threat of guns/force/jail.

amother

Linen

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 12:54 am

My bil's mother was abusive and neglected her many children. To this day, people think she is a wonderful Rebbitzen, although I think the facade has cracked a bit now that the children are grown and a high number of them have emotional issues. B"H, my bil is a resilient guy and is a wonderful husband and father. But he talks with deep pain about his childhood. While he is resentful that the other adults on his life, (neighbors, teachers) did not come to their aid, he does say that he is thankful that he didn't end up in foster care as he has friends who went through the system and he doesn't envy them at all. But regarding neglect, from what I've heard from him, while the physical abuse was terrible, the neglect was many many times more harmful, damaging and actually dangerous.

amother

Black

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 1:13 am

In other words, Bestbubby, you have no first-hand knowledge. You just keep requoting the same few one sided articles and random statistics that are not backed up by respected sources.
It's the equivalent of using Wikipedia articles to write a thesis.
(You realize that "statement" is a highly charged emotional petition that was solely written to for highly dramatic effect, right? Just to get signatures. Not a valid article, study, or even website. By its very nature it can't be brought as proof of anything. It's actually less valid than a Wikipedia article. It would not be used in court as evidence, either.)

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 1:25 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

If you don't believe a former CPS worker who says that CPS is a kidnapping organization and does far more harm than good, than there is nothing more to say.

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 1:52 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

You clearly don't understand the difference between a well researched article or interview vs a petition on a website called change.org.
It's like a tabloid vs the Wall Street Journal. Do you believe the headlines in the National Enquirer? They will quote plenty of "experts" who are actually anything but. Who knows if that guy is actually for real, he may not even exist in real life. It may be totally made up. I feel sorry for you that you are so naive.

Carlos Morales, a former CPS worker, wrote a book "Legally Kidnapped" how CPS was doing FAR more harm than good and destroying children's lives.

I showed you links to three studies showing that Foster Care is FAR worse than staying in homes with "some" maltreatment.

I showed you links to news articles of CPS taking children away because "father uncooperative" (no evidence of danger) or "parents made children do homework for hours" (no evidence of danger).

I could show you all the evidence in the world and you would say it's "National Enquirer" when it IS credible sources.

You are intellectually dishonest and don't admit the truth.

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 1:57 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

Bestbubby you ignored every single person's actual experiences here and you think you know better because you read some articles and statistics. And most of them are not real sources. But it's obvious that we can all talk until we are blue in the face, you obviously will always know best.

I have not ignored peoples experiences.
I am so sorry people have experienced abuse/neglect.

Let me ASK those of you who were abused - Do you wish you were put in foster care? Someone posted re: her bil who was abused that the bil still is thankful he was not put in foster care - and bil had friends who were in foster care and it was worse than home.

I not saying abuse is good. I'm just saying that foster care could be worse abuse.
Being put in foster could mean separation and estrangement from siblings and all your relatives.
Foster care could mean being bounced from home to home.
I am sure frum foster homes are better, but in general population there is a very high rate of abuse and molestation in foster homes - both from foster parents and also from the other foster kids who can be very dangerous.

Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, Aug 19 2019, 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Black

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 1:59 am

No, you cut and paste from some random articles you found online. No respected articles or sites. You ignored any questions you couldn't answer, you just double down and repeat yourself. At this point, I think you've lost most posters. Certainly by now you have lost me.
If you want to stay naive and ignorant about valid sources and research, that is your prerogative. But don't be surprised if people don't engage you in discussion since you refuse to listen to anybody else.
(Btw. That book you mentioned was self published on amazon. He couldn't get a real publishing company to publish it, or real people to vouch for it or write book blurbs. No book reviews by Kirkus or any others. That's the mark of a fraud. It is not a reliable or valid source. It is absolutely the equivalent of the national enquirer.)

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 2:07 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I find it pretty horrible that you think you can debate with me about where I would have suffered more. And yes I DID wish someone would have removed me and put me with a foster family. I lived through hell. And you know what hardly anyone knew, and they respected my parents and they were known as amazing people. So it would have been my word against theirs and based on what happened when I told people, I can guarantee if the system worked the way you pretend it can, I would have been left in my abusive home. And you are not getting that there was horrific abuse and you would have had no idea if you met any of us or even spent time in our house. And yet I am left with horrific scars that affect me every single day. So stop arguing about what would have been better for me. I should have been removed from my home, I should not have lived through that. And I feel you, who has never lived for a day through abuse has absolutely no right to decide you understand anything.

amother

Azure

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 2:11 am

BestBubby, it seems that you have a personal negative experience with CPS.

Which would explain the fact that you find objective debate impossible.

But it also explains why others are having a hard time discussing this with you.

CPS is not 100% evil. Granted, it is not 100% good, and has done some pretty awful things. But overall, it takes kids out of dangerous home situations, not leaving them defenseless against their parents.

And who knows how many parents restrained themselves, just knowing that CPS could be called on them?

Some small improvements could certainly make it better and more reliable. But demanding to throw out the whole project is a terrible thing for defenseless children.

LovesHashem

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 2:14 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I don't think Foster Care should be "dismantled" because there ARE some children who need to be removed from. home. I think Foster Care must be reformed:

1. Public Trials by Jury. Standard should be "beyond a reasonable doubt".

2. No removal of children without evidence of physical or s-xual abuse. (Today 85% are removed for "neglect" which could mean very little).

3. Children should be given to relatives (grandparents, aunt) and not strangers.

2. So we should of been left at home? Emotional abuse means nothing to you? The effects of emotional abuse can be far worse than physical abuse, especially since it plays with your mind and distorts your reality.

3. What if there are none? What if they are unfit? All my family is secular, I would of grown up not religious then. Is that what you want?

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 19 2019, 2:14 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

It is extremely rare for a child to say they want to be removed from the home - even if there was some abuse. Therefore, a child's asking to be removed is STRONG EVIDENCE. I am confident that if there was a jury trial and a child said they are suffering terrible abuse and WANT to be removed from the home - that child WOULD be removed.

I think you are incorrect when you say a jury trial would not have protected you.

Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, Aug 19 2019, 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total