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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 7:44 am
Before anything else, I was really debating putting this under safe haven. I want this to be respectful and not attacking anyone.

Assuming this forum takes off, it's going to be a pretty big tent, from parents who choose ps because of specialized services for sn kids to parents who want a stronger general studies education for their kids. And they'll all need support. So hatzlacha to the moderators!

I want to address the parents who are looking for strong general studies. What are your plans for limudei kodesh? And I was going to ask, who do you see your children becoming? But I know the answer to that: It's, whoever they become and want to become. But what goals do you have for them Jewishly? How do want to seem them living Jewishly? What kind of homes do you want them to create and transmit to their children? What kind of educational and social framework will they need to get from a to b?

Maybe this isn't the place to discuss it. If this thread does develop, I want everyone to be respectful. Tbh, I think that this is the discussion I wanted to have with Magenta Yenta but I was too polite Smile
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amother




Wheat


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 8:37 am
I'm not in the situation, but I know people who are. Their child is primarily in public school because of special needs, but they also know that they are confident with their Jewish knowledge (father is a Rabbi) to be able to provide the child with kodesh at home. Additionally, if a child's in public school, you have Sundays and long afternoons/evenings to provide kodesh (think about the talmud Torah system 50+ years ago) but a kid in yeshiva doesn't have a spare minute to self teach secular.

(Disclaimer: I wouldn't consider sending my kid to public school just for better chol, but I can understand the thought process)
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 9:10 am
THEY WANT JUST LIKE YOU.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 9:15 am
A strong secular education is necessary for survival and being able to support oneself in the future, so it is very important in my opinion.

Kodesh is taught at home, maybe at a slower pace than yeshiva, but it's doable.

Everyday life teaches kodesh as well, think mother cooking while explaining kashrut, gemara on Shabbat, tefillah..
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 9:36 am
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:
A strong secular education is necessary for survival and being able to support oneself in the future, so it is very important in my opinion.

Kodesh is taught at home, maybe at a slower pace than yeshiva, but it's doable.

Everyday life teaches kodesh as well, think mother cooking while explaining kashrut, gemara on Shabbat, tefillah..


I am a BT and found it harder to learn Jewish topics later in life than the difficulties people face catching up on secular subjects later in life unless the person didn't grow up speaking or reading English and now needs to do so. A child who goes to public school needs to get as much chinuch as possible outside of the school day
I do feel that a teen who is going OTD and is getting thrown out of yeshivas may be better served going to public school and learning Torah one on one with someone after school. Twisted parenting apparently holds that pushing yiddishkeit backfires.
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OOTforlife




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 9:49 am
amother [ Wheat ] wrote:
I'm not in the situation, but I know people who are. Their child is primarily in public school because of special needs, but they also know that they are confident with their Jewish knowledge (father is a Rabbi) to be able to provide the child with kodesh at home. Additionally, if a child's in public school, you have Sundays and long afternoons/evenings to provide kodesh (think about the talmud Torah system 50+ years ago) but a kid in yeshiva doesn't have a spare minute to self teach secular.

(Disclaimer: I wouldn't consider sending my kid to public school just for better chol, but I can understand the thought process)

It's a little bit of a Catch-22. If you're sending to a public or secular private school with excellent secular studies and your child wants to perform well, then your child definitely will not have long afternoons and evenings and Sundays to devote to kodesh. At least not after fifth grade or so.

I'm not categorically opposed to sending to a secular school, as I think every child deserves to be considered on a case by case basis. But it's important to understand the constraints.
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amother




Hotpink


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 10:07 am
I have one child who had been in public school for 3 years (not consecutively) and is currently in a private non-Jewish school.

He is SN and the Jewish community I live in - not Brooklyn, but a good size Jewish community - does not have an appropriate school for my child. If they did, I would certainly take advantage of it no matter the tuition cost.

To be clear, some of the frum Jewish schools here would take in as a student. But they are not equiped to educate him. So he'd basically just be sitting there, maybe or maybe not absorbing some of what is going on, and being pulled out maybe an hour here and there through the week for one-on-one with someone who might or more likely might not have the skills to help him. I was told that as long as he is not a behavior problem, they will let him stay. This doesn't interest me.

Our community also has a school that is geared towards children with serious behavioral problems. That's not my child. And there is another school that takes kids who are severely SN and minimally educable. That is also not my child.

So that leaves me choosing between public school and private schools that can teach him.

To be honest, even living in a Jewish home and having a rebi tutor him in the afternoons is not really enough of what I would like him to be getting in terms of Jewish education. And I feel badly about that. But I also feel that it would be negligent to keep him from a school that is helping him finally to be literate and able to do math beyond 2+2 and all the other basic skills people really need to function in the world.
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amother




Orange


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 10:16 am
I went to public school, and my father taught us kodesh on Sundays .
They weren't really frum, it was more that he wanted us to have a strong Jewish background.
I would say that by high school, we had no time during the week for extra kodesh studies, and we were resentful of giving up a couple of hours of free time on Sundays.

Because my father was an excellent teacher, I know fluent Hebrew now, I can read Rashi, and I know many halachot.
But public school had a heavy influence on my values and world view. I am good with that, just saying it's something to take into account.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 10:19 am
southernbubby wrote:
I am a BT and found it harder to learn Jewish topics later in life than the difficulties people face catching up on secular subjects later in life unless the person didn't grow up speaking or reading English and now needs to do so. A child who goes to public school needs to get as much chinuch as possible outside of the school day
I do feel that a teen who is going OTD and is getting thrown out of yeshivas may be better served going to public school and learning Torah one on one with someone after school. Twisted parenting apparently holds that pushing yiddishkeit backfires.


Many things to take into consideration, of course.It also depends on the child, mine really learns every single day after school and has the discipline to do that. Also, he's a FFB even though he goes to PS, not exactly the same as being a BT and then suddenly learning everything, very different situations.
Of course it takes a toll on social life, but in this case it really is a financial matter, even with breaks it wouldn't be possible to put in yeshiva, so we work with what we can.
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amother




Lime


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 11:01 am
My kids would probably be in public school if I wasn't around. My dh, as well as me, can't stand the cost of jewish schools, but I care about the importance of it. I don't think we have strong enough ruchnius in our house, but if we did do it, we would pay someone to teach limudei kodesh. I can't and my husband isn't home much and has no patience.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 11:09 am
OOTforlife wrote:
It's a little bit of a Catch-22. If you're sending to a public or secular private school with excellent secular studies and your child wants to perform well, then your child definitely will not have long afternoons and evenings and Sundays to devote to kodesh. At least not after fifth grade or so.

I'm not categorically opposed to sending to a secular school, as I think every child deserves to be considered on a case by case basis. But it's important to understand the constraints.


I have a dear friend, not frum, who sends her kids to an excellent private school. There is extensive after school practice, classes, etc.
And to consign teaching gemara to Shabbos, I.e. one day a week instead of time devoted daily or as close as possible won't leave a child with the skills he should get to feel that he has a cheilek in Torah. I'm talking about a bright kid who's going to p.s. for enrichment and a solid education. You need a plan to make sure the child - boy or girl - will have a vibrant connection. Will not just know the halachas and how tos, but have commitment and connection.
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amother




Periwinkle


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 12:46 pm
There are several different issues here. (I have a DS in public school--I am the amother firebrick in the other thread).

Content wise, you can teach quite a bit in less time when you are working one on one. The issues are time and motivation. It's not too bad in elementary grades but as homework pressure grows there is less time and children are tired after a day of school. Of course you also need to be capable of teaching (or able to find someone who can). You will never be able to achieve what a child going to a yeshiva with very strong Judaics can, but you can cover a lot.

What you can't replicate are the opportunities that are woven in to a yeshiva day like tefilla and also feeling integrated into a group. That has to be worked on separately.

There are some tradeoffs. In our case the scales were pretty lopsided, though.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 1:20 pm
It would be great if some imas that have children in yeshivot could post their kodesh studies curriculum and books, workbooks that are used.
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mha3484




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 1:40 pm
My son is starting 3rd grade in an OOT Yeshivish school. I looked through the list of sefarim for all the grades and I will share it here if it helps anyone:

Pre1a is focused on Kriah. They build on davening. They also learned about yom tovim, hilchos shabbos and gedolim. The rebbe taught them each week about a different gadol which I LOVE. I really felt the key to this year was to instill a love of learning and pride to be a jewish boy.

1st grade they learned two parshios. Berashis and Noach. They also did a lot of work on Kesiva. Started to learn shemona esrei.

Second grade they learned Lech lecha through Vayetze. They started learning rashi in the spring time.

For third grade in addition to berashis that we have already I need to buy sefer shemos and mishnayos brachos.

Fourth grade is more chumash shemos, mishnyaos sukka, megillah and pesachim. dikduk and Navi. They learn sefer yehoshua.

Fifth grade they ask for a kitzur shulchan aruch and they start gemara. They finish sefer shemos and start bamidbar. They learn sefer shoftim.

Sixth Grade is Chumash Vaykira, Navi Shmuel Aleph, Gemara bava kama.

Seventh Grade is more Vaykira, Sefer Melachim, Bava metziya, mishnayos shabbos and they learn hilchos tefillin

8th grade is heavy on the gemara. The boys learn bava kama, sefer melachim.

This is just general because rebeim will talk about tefillah, yomtov, hashkfa based on the the themes of the year etc.
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amother




Firebrick


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 1:47 pm
My relative went to PS for 6th, 7th and 8th grade.
Her parents hired a kodesh teacher but it wasn't enough to withstand the peer pressure of school and she stopped dressing tziusdik and her language got much worse.

They tried to put her back in a Jewish school for high school but the high schools wouldn't accept her and she had to go to a kiruv high school instead.

She came out of high school very left wing liberal and barely frum.
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amother




Blush


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 1:51 pm
amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:
My relative went to PS for 6th, 7th and 8th grade.
Her parents hired a kodesh teacher but it wasn't enough to withstand the peer pressure of school and she stopped dressing tziusdik and her language got much worse.

They tried to put her back in a Jewish school for high school but the high schools wouldn't accept her and she had to go to a kiruv high school instead.

She came out of high school very left wing liberal and barely frum.


Shrug.

And my neighbor's kids went to public school through 8th grade. All became frum top learners (boys and girls), and dressed completely tzniut.

The plural of anecdote isn't data.
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Aylat




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 2:07 pm
PF, maybe my experience would be interesting to you. I grew up in a small Jewish community. My parents didn't want to send me away for high school so I went to an excellent non-Jewish school and had Jewish lessons Sunday mornings and 2 or 3 times a week after school.

Advantages:

I grew up with a very strong sense of identity. I washed before bread, wore skirts, kept kosher etc because I believed in it, not because of social pressure. These were all conscious decisions - although instilled in me by my parents. This is something that is still with me to a large extent for many decisions I make - from how to cover my hair to decisions I make about raising my kids.

Growing up in a multicultural environment gave me a great perspective into different people. I don't have the automatic racism that growing up in a single-culture environment engenders.

When I went to seminary I was blown away by what I was learning. I didn't understand why all my friends felt the same - hadn't they been through 12 years of Jewish education and learned this all before? But apparently Jewish schooling doesn't necessarily mean you are spiritually inspired and knowledgeable. I wasn't jaded by negative high school experiences and came fresh to this rich spiritual environment.

I didn't have any problems catching up in terms of Jewish knowledge. Partly I had actually learned quite a bit (without realising in) in my after-school Jewish lessons, partly my intellectual personality and drive made it easy for me to learn lots in seminary.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 2:11 pm
mha3484 wrote:
My son is starting 3rd grade in an OOT Yeshivish school. I looked through the list of sefarim for all the grades and I will share it here if it helps anyone:

Pre1a is focused on Kriah. They build on davening. They also learned about yom tovim, hilchos shabbos and gedolim. The rebbe taught them each week about a different gadol which I LOVE. I really felt the key to this year was to instill a love of learning and pride to be a jewish boy.

1st grade they learned two parshios. Berashis and Noach. They also did a lot of work on Kesiva. Started to learn shemona esrei.

Second grade they learned Lech lecha through Vayetze. They started learning rashi in the spring time.

For third grade in addition to berashis that we have already I need to buy sefer shemos and mishnayos brachos.

Fourth grade is more chumash shemos, mishnyaos sukka, megillah and pesachim. dikduk and Navi. They learn sefer yehoshua.

Fifth grade they ask for a kitzur shulchan aruch and they start gemara. They finish sefer shemos and start bamidbar. They learn sefer shoftim.

Sixth Grade is Chumash Vaykira, Navi Shmuel Aleph, Gemara bava kama.

Seventh Grade is more Vaykira, Sefer Melachim, Bava metziya, mishnayos shabbos and they learn hilchos tefillin

8th grade is heavy on the gemara. The boys learn bava kama, sefer melachim.

This is just general because rebeim will talk about tefillah, yomtov, hashkfa based on the the themes of the year etc.

This is very helpful, thank you! I always wonder if I'm on the right track, so I'm always looking into how other places are teaching so I can try to implement or at least to stay on track.
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Aylat




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 2:14 pm
Disadvantages:

Like the Gemara that says: "many did like Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and didn't succeed." When there's a struggle, there's also the possibility of failure. I remember being shocked seeing a friend of mine (same MO family background) buying food from the non-kosher school canteen.

There are those who came out stronger, more committed, some ended up more religious than their families. And there are those who dropped observance either partially or completely, dated non-Jews, etc.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Aug 20 2019, 2:30 pm
Aylat wrote:
PF, maybe my experience would be interesting to you. I grew up in a small Jewish community. My parents didn't want to send me away for high school so I went to an excellent non-Jewish school and had Jewish lessons Sunday mornings and 2 or 3 times a week after school.

Advantages:

I grew up with a very strong sense of identity. I washed before bread, wore skirts, kept kosher etc because I believed in it, not because of social pressure. These were all conscious decisions - although instilled in me by my parents. This is something that is still with me to a large extent for many decisions I make - from how to cover my hair to decisions I make about raising my kids.

Growing up in a multicultural environment gave me a great perspective into different people. I don't have the automatic racism that growing up in a single-culture environment engenders.

When I went to seminary I was blown away by what I was learning. I didn't understand why all my friends felt the same - hadn't they been through 12 years of Jewish education and learned this all before? But apparently Jewish schooling doesn't necessarily mean you are spiritually inspired and knowledgeable. I wasn't jaded by negative high school experiences and came fresh to this rich spiritual environment.

I didn't have any problems catching up in terms of Jewish knowledge. Partly I had actually learned quite a bit (without realising in) in my after-school Jewish lessons, partly my intellectual personality and drive made it easy for me to learn lots in seminary.


Yes, your experience is interesting.
I was also blown away by seminary. But I'm probably older than you which makes your story even more compelling.
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