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Ex-vaxxer what will do now?
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amother




Seashell


Post  Tue, Sep 03 2019, 5:30 pm
nchr wrote:
Not exactly. Let's say 70% of unvaccinated people will get sick and have a full viral load very capable of infecting someone else v. 20% of vaccinated people being healthy carriers with a partial viral load that needs more prolonged exposure to infect another person. So there is a concept of protection through vaccination, albeit not a perfect one.

A few years ago I was at a sheva brachos and a child, who had pertussis, was coughing all over me. I needed to visit an immune compromised individual, so my dr called the CDC who advised I take a dose of antibiotics to make sure I wouldn't be a carrier. So responsible doctors do address this.

seriously? you weren't vaccinated for pertusis? ouch. that's bad
or you were vaccinated and you think the vaccine might not work so you might have caught it anyhow?
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Sebastian




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Sep 03 2019, 5:32 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
cooperated?
did you see a single pamphlet explaining the importance of isolating yourself during an outbreak if you have certain symptoms?
I didn't. I would've cooperated gladly with that


you need a pamphlet? I thought anti vaxers are educated. You decide not to vaccinate and there's an outbreak, you either vaccinate or stay home.
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Sebastian




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Sep 03 2019, 5:34 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
seriously? you weren't vaccinated for pertusis? ouch. that's bad
or you were vaccinated and you think the vaccine might not work so you might have caught it anyhow?


the pertussis vaccine isn't super effective, but if a vaccinate person gets pertussis they get a much easier case (and are less likely to pass it on to someone). The more effective vaccine had more side effects so it was pulled from the market.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Tue, Sep 03 2019, 6:39 pm
Sebastian wrote:
a vaxed kid who has pertussis has a smaller viral load than an unvaxed kid with pertussis. It's relevant b/c she's explaining why it makes sense for Dtap to be mandated.

I would like sources and numbers on that.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Tue, Sep 03 2019, 6:40 pm
Sebastian wrote:
the pertussis vaccine isn't super effective, but if a vaccinate person gets pertussis they get a much easier case (and are less likely to pass it on to someone). The more effective vaccine had more side effects so it was pulled from the market.

I haven't seen any science on the bolded. Can you provide a source?
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amother




Magenta


Post  Tue, Sep 03 2019, 6:46 pm
Sebastian wrote:
the pertussis vaccine isn't super effective, but if a vaccinate person gets pertussis they get a much easier case (and are less likely to pass it on to someone). The more effective vaccine had more side effects so it was pulled from the market.


Can you please provide sources on this?
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 7:37 am
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
seriously? you weren't vaccinated for pertusis? ouch. that's bad
or you were vaccinated and you think the vaccine might not work so you might have caught it anyhow?


No, I was vaccinated for pertussis; however, I was exposed to an active case and did not want to be a healthy carrier because I was going to be around an individual with a severely suppressed immune system due to steroids.

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
Where do you take your percentages from?

I'm glad your doctor advised you on the right course of action, but how is this story relevant for children in school, who presumably don't know if someone coughed all over them?


Sorry. Those figures were used as an example (that is why I said "Let's say"). However, it is a fact that vaccinated individuals do carry less of a viral load, even if infected with pertussis than those who were never vaccinated. This is why they can appear to be healthy. This also means they are less likely to infect people, even those who have never been vaccinated. I can look up the numbers later, but not before the end of next week (or maybe Motsi Shabbos) because it will take several hours to research the exact figures and I do not have time. I was responding to someone who was saying healthy people can transmit pertussis because while that is true in theory, it is not the same as a non vaccinated individual with pertussis simply because: a) if exposed, those who are vaccinated are less likely to come down with the illness (including being a carrier) and b) even if vaccinated do get the ilness or become carriers, they have a lower viral load. How infectious something is has to do with how hot the virus is or how much of a viral load you need to infect someone. Ebola is a very hot virus. With pertussis, a vaccinated individual has a lesser viral load, so less likely to infect someone. Obviously, when we had DTP this was not the case, but it was removed because of it being less tolerable than DTaP.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 8:58 am
nchr wrote:
Sorry. Those figures were used as an example (that is why I said "Let's say"). However, it is a fact that vaccinated individuals do carry less of a viral load, even if infected with pertussis than those who were never vaccinated. This is why they can appear to be healthy. This also means they are less likely to infect people, even those who have never been vaccinated. I can look up the numbers later, but not before the end of next week (or maybe Motsi Shabbos) because it will take several hours to research the exact figures and I do not have time. I was responding to someone who was saying healthy people can transmit pertussis because while that is true in theory, it is not the same as a non vaccinated individual with pertussis simply because: a) if exposed, those who are vaccinated are less likely to come down with the illness (including being a carrier) and b) even if vaccinated do get the ilness or become carriers, they have a lower viral load. How infectious something is has to do with how hot the virus is or how much of a viral load you need to infect someone. Ebola is a very hot virus. With pertussis, a vaccinated individual has a lesser viral load, so less likely to infect someone. Obviously, when we had DTP this was not the case, but it was removed because of it being less tolerable than DTaP.

I am asking (for the third time now) for a source of this fact.

The problem with a vaccinated person being a carrier is that they don't know they are one, and thus are MORE likely to expose others. Unvaccinated people sick with pertussis are aware that they are sick and should stay home.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 9:14 am
southernbubby wrote:
Yeah but I don't believe that everything is about the big pharma agenda. Also if you want me to recognize you, post under your screen name.

Someone railroaded it but you might want to consider that it's someone other than big pharma. I wouldn't doubt that they had input from disgruntled citizens who were tired of the outbreak.


This is taken from an article about California's SB276 :
Quote:
“Further, it is being regularly reported by those lucky enough to be face-to-face with their lawmakers that many don’t even want to vote on this bill but feel immense pressure from their Democrat leadership and their big special interest fundraisers and donors to vote ‘yes,'” Lockwood added.


This sums it up. Not only in California. I leave it up to you to decide if those big special interest fundraisers and donors might not include the likes of Merck, GSK, Sanofi.
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amother




Black


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 9:59 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
This sums it up. Not only in California. I leave it up to you to decide if those big special interest fundraisers and donors might not include the likes of Merck, GSK, Sanofi.


Quote:
Further, it is being regularly reported by those lucky enough to be face-to-face with their lawmakers that many don’t even want to vote on this bill but feel immense pressure from their Democrat leadership and their big special interest fundraisers and donors to vote ‘yes,'” Lockwood added.


Jonathan Lockwood?
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amother




Black


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 10:08 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I am asking (for the third time now) for a source of this fact.

The problem with a vaccinated person being a carrier is that they don't know they are one, and thus are MORE likely to expose others. Unvaccinated people sick with pertussis are aware that they are sick and should stay home.


This makes no sense.

A person with a hacking yucky cough, hard to breath yucky cough, isn't going to say to himself "oh this must not be whopping cough, I'm immune, I can go out and cough on everybody"
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 10:45 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I am asking (for the third time now) for a source of this fact.

The problem with a vaccinated person being a carrier is that they don't know they are one, and thus are MORE likely to expose others. Unvaccinated people sick with pertussis are aware that they are sick and should stay home.


aP vaccinated infected people are less efficient at transmitting B. pertussis compared with unvaccinated infected people, though it is not clear to what extent

Warfel JM, Merkel TJ. Reply to Domenech de Cellès et al.: infection and transmission of pertussis in the baboon model. Proc Natl Acad Sci.; 111:718. [PMC free article] [PubMed]


and this also addresses the concept: "aP vaccines would render infected individuals less contagious, even if they do not induce resistance to infection among those who were exposed"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....0413/
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 10:48 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
This makes no sense.

A person with a hacking yucky cough, hard to breath yucky cough, isn't going to say to himself "oh this must not be whopping cough, I'm immune, I can go out and cough on everybody"


She's discussing asymptomatic carriers who may have been vaccinated with aP v. the old wP. The wP prevented sickness/disease and infection, whereas it appears that the aP (which has less and more mild side effects and is better tolerated) prevents sickness/disease but allows some people to still be infectious (mostly found in the nasal areas) so they may not know they are sick and infect others. However, those vaccinated with aP who are infections (not all are) are less infectious than those infected who were never vaccinated.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 11:03 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
This sums it up. Not only in California. I leave it up to you to decide if those big special interest fundraisers and donors might not include the likes of Merck, GSK, Sanofi.


Someone is obviously buying off Democrats but can't pay enough to Republicans. Big pharma isn't innocent however just like Amazon took over retail, it was with the public's consent.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 11:52 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I am asking (for the third time now) for a source of this fact.

The problem with a vaccinated person being a carrier is that they don't know they are one, and thus are MORE likely to expose others. Unvaccinated people sick with pertussis are aware that they are sick and should stay home.


Many diseases have asymptomatic carriers. A classic case is polio. Out of every 100 people infected with polio, more than 70 won't have any symptoms at all. Around 25 will have symptoms, but these are usually very mild, akin to a mild stomach bug. The dreaded complications of polio only develop in a handful of those infected, around half a percent. The fact that so many were asymptomatic carriers is precisely why polio could spread so quickly.

But the polio vaccine has been a stunning success. It has been eradicated in the US, and almost eradicated worldwide.

Nearly every disease has asymptomatic carriers. Think about all those families that come down with viruses, where some kids get sick and some are perfectly fine. Pertussis also has asymptomatic carriers. The trouble with the DTaP vaccine is that it is not effective enough. But clearly, the vaccine, even if only partly effective, does not increase the number of asymptomatic carriers, because more people would become asymptomatic carriers if there were no vaccine. Further, as nchr has pointed out, a vaccinated asymptomatic carrier is less able to transmit the virus than a non-vaccinated asymptomatic carrier because of the reduced viral load.
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amother




Black


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:09 pm
nchr wrote:
She's discussing asymptomatic carriers who may have been vaccinated with aP v. the old wP. The wP prevented sickness/disease and infection, whereas it appears that the aP (which has less and more mild side effects and is better tolerated) prevents sickness/disease but allows some people to still be infectious (mostly found in the nasal areas) so they may not know they are sick and infect others. However, those vaccinated with aP who are infections (not all are) are less infectious than those infected who were never vaccinated.


spread via runny nose?
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amother




Pewter


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:24 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
This makes no sense.

A person with a hacking yucky cough, hard to breath yucky cough, isn't going to say to himself "oh this must not be whopping cough, I'm immune, I can go out and cough on everybody"

Did you follow this conversation at all? We are talking about silent carriers, which means they are asymptomatic and yet can infect others.
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:41 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
spread via runny nose?


Essentially, but not entirely. They found the bacteria in the Nasopharyngeal area of those who had been vaccinated with aP whereas those who had received the wP did not have pertussis bacteria in that region. There is a lot of bacteria that lives in that region, including strep, etc. When a person has full blown pertussis, then they also spread the bacteria through coughing, but that does not mean it is not spread out ways, including those the Nasopharyngeal area with people (vaccinated and unvaccinated) who otherwise don't have symptoms.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:44 pm
nchr wrote:
aP vaccinated infected people are less efficient at transmitting B. pertussis compared with unvaccinated infected people, though it is not clear to what extent

Warfel JM, Merkel TJ. Reply to Domenech de Cellès et al.: infection and transmission of pertussis in the baboon model. Proc Natl Acad Sci.; 111:718. [PMC free article] [PubMed]


and this also addresses the concept: "aP vaccines would render infected individuals less contagious, even if they do not induce resistance to infection among those who were exposed"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....0413/

Thanks for this link. It actually confirms my point that the resurgence of pertussis is due to vaccinated people being asymptomatic carriers. They conclude that additional studies on humans need to be done.

Here is the result:
Quote:
In conclusion, the preponderance of available evidence now suggests that the list of plausible explanations for the resurgence of pertussis in the aP vaccination era goes beyond the “poor persistence” and “waning efficacy” of these vaccines to include an additional and likely pivotal factor: “lack of sterilizing mucosal immunity”. What is missing is direct evidence to validate this chain of logic, to go beyond the limitations of animal models, and to provide human data to support the hypotheses raised by the epidemiologists, experimentalists, and modelers. This issue would be greatly informed by carriage studies of B. pertussis among the general population, particularly around transitions in vaccine policy (such as future wP to aP transitions), and as an endpoint in clinical trials of any new third-generation pertussis vaccines.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:46 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Someone is obviously buying off Democrats but can't pay enough to Republicans. Big pharma isn't innocent however just like Amazon took over retail, it was with the public's consent.

HUH? Can you explain this please?
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