How do you manage when you're living squashed?

Mommyg8

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:22 am

OP, you have gotten some excellent advise on this thread, so I'm not going to be an echo.

All I can add is that you are ahead of the game - I came to this realization after 40, it is much easier to change paths at your age.

If you want advice as to how to go about it, I can help you. Just a quick synopsis - TTI is quick and helpful, but you have to put up money upfront. Another way to get a bachelor's (so you can go on to a masters) is by following a plan on instantcert. It may be a little cheaper than TTI, but much more of a pain. Another option is to take online classes (it sounds like you are eligible for FAFSA) and get a degree that way. If you are in New York I understand that there are a lot of in class options as well. (This advice is geared to either you or your husband).

I know I said that I will not be an echo, but I really do have to say that it's not helpful to be angry at your parents. It sounds like your parents raised you the way they thought was the best way, anbd presumably it worked for them. It's not their fault that the world has changed so much.

ETA: just re-read this and realized that you're probably not in the US. Sorry I can't be helpful then.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:26 am

OP- I dont know if other peoples stories give you chizuk or not. I also got married (at 22) to DH who didnt have a high school diploma and he was in yeshiva and then joined a kollel after we got married. He got his H.S diploma at 25, graduated undergrad with a major in chemistry and a minor in biology at 28. Hes in his 2nd year of med school and hes turning 30. I work very full time and we were bh able to buy a house. Im pregnant with kid #3 iyh. Neither of our parents "set us up" we were never supported and we were kinda of expected to figure it out on our own. We saw this with our siblings before us so this didnt come as a surprise.. but dont sulk now! Take action! If you waste these years, the bills build and ive seen the other side of it 1st hand (low income, high expenses) and Its not pretty. .

Mommyg8

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:30 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

And when I was trying to spare some innocent boy all this tzar in another thread
I was the bad one
Continue on

Naturalmom5, it's easy and convenient to lump all Chareidim in the same basket. However, there are some very serious differences in how different communities are raising their children.

I don't know where OP lives and which community she belongs to, but I can tell she does NOT belong to the yeshivish Lakewood/NY community.

Most of the girls have degrees, and if they don't, it's by choice, not by default. As for the men- I personally know a few guys who are/were in medical school and law school that learned until they were at least 24. And many who don't go to college are very successful as well. The yeshivish world does not marry them off "young and dumb" either (at least relatively speaking).

You don't like the yeshivish system, that's great, but please don't make up lies about us. We are NOT Chassidish and we are not raising our children in the way OP described.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:34 am

And just to offer another perspective- my parents BH not only encouraged me to get a degree, they paid for both college and graduate school. I consider myself very lucky, and I'm very grateful to them. My dh has a master's degree as well. You know what? We're living in a cramped two bedroom apartment with four kids BH. Because we can't afford anything else. We do our hishtadlus and then Hashem decides the rest....

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:42 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

You pick your community, or are you born into it?

Can an 18 year old who's been taught one path in life all through her years, really have the presence of mind at that young age to know that the said path is not a good match for her? Especially without much thought given to it as they're told it all gets worked out after they're married? Plus to have what it takes to set up life in a new community?

As squishy pointed out:

"I once heard a chossid cynically describe the system as you marry them off when they are young and dumb. Then you celebrate the birth of the first. By the time they are on their second, they are stuck."

Do you know how many of my friends and family quoted this in their mid 20s?

Never heard that quote. It's dumb. Some people move their whole life with a ton of kids, be it changing place or going to another hashkafa.

The parents will not teach a child to leave. Do you think frei parents make sure the child will fit in Bne brak?

amother

Ruby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 10:57 am

Ruchel wrote:

The parents will not teach a child to leave. Do you think frei parents make sure the child will fit in Bne brak?

It's true that each community has its own limitations. Parents raise kids to fit in their own communities.
That said, some ways of raising a child limit their future more than others.

A secular child can, at 20, decide to become a BT. It will be challenging, but it can (and has) been done. They can go to a seminar or yeshiva, get married, and move to Bnei Brak by 22.

A very sheltered chassidic girl (or boy) cannot decide at 20 that they want to leave the fold. The repercussions are too great. By that age they are often married, and even pregnant. They are trapped.
They can't even decide to get a good job and climb out of poverty (unless they happen to be business people). Going to college with little kids is very difficult, and not everyone can manage it. And in many countries 'online degrees' are worth zero.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 11:41 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Raising a family is hard enough, doing it without space is even harder..
I'm angry at my parents for not allowing me to go to uni and then marrying me off at a young age to a boy who also had no degree either. Then we get pregnant and have 2 kids and only now do I realise how we were set up for failure and a miserable time. Because now I have toddlers and can't even go study and even if I would do so it would take ages to qualify and start getting payed a decent wage.

Why is the orthodox way so twisted when it causes so much innocent people pain?

I hear you... but, you were an adult. You could have said no to marriage. It's not fair to blame your parents for a decision you made. Regardless of whether you were pressured into marriage, you have to accept responsibility for making these choices. I felt pressured into going to a college I didn't really like, getting a degree which cost a lot of money and didn't enable me to get a high-paying job. Whose fault is it for caving into the pressure? Mine.

Having a college degree is not a ticket to a high paying job, but it is a ticket to paying high student loans! I have a masters degree, and guess what- it turns out that my market is oversaturated, so finding a good high-paying job is difficult. Going to college is great if you want to be a doctor or lawyer... but there are great jobs, like computer jobs, which require skill, not a degree. You can become a computer programmer, cyber security expert or backend/frontend developer earning $80,000 per year within 12 month, IF you take responsibility and learn the skills needed to get this sort of job (there are more jobs than developers!). These employers, for the most part, want skill, not a degree. My high school graduate husband earns significantly more than me, because he learned skills, while I earned a piece of paper. And he doesn't have thousands of dollars in student loans either.

You are cheating yourself by focusing on a dream of having a college degree (which I can tell you doesn't mean much to employers who want skill and knowledge), when you should be focusing on how YOU can improve your situation by learning the skills employers want.

amother

Periwinkle

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 11:59 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

I was addressing the grown-ups, not the 18 year olds.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 12:13 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

I don't believe in spending your life blaming your parents, but it's disingenuous to say that a 19 year old raised in a chassidic (or other very RW culture) could just say 'no' to marriage. 19 is so young, you're still full of everything the system has taught you (and this is true for everyone, from every culture). You aren't mature enough to have any perspective. And most 19 year olds don't have the confidence to be different and stand up to peer pressure. (It's not just parents who are pushing marriage, but all their friends and teachers and everyone else).

And there is a HUGE difference between being pressured to get married at 19 and being pressured to get a degree in something you don't like.

The first scenario is a lot harder to get out of. Once you are married, there is another person in the picture. In fact, there often is a baby very soon too, so you have a husband and a helpless child who are both very dependent on your choices. Your life is intertwined with theirs. You aren't free to just say, 'sorry, guys, I think I'd like to do something else'.

Getting stuck with a degree you don't want is much less limiting than getting stuck in a marriage that is wrong for you.

amother

Plum

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 12:16 pm

I totally understand the blame on the parents. I am crying all day abt the situation But we have 4 kids. We teied to take control of our lives My husband who is chassidic hustled through college degree it took 8 years. We lives squashed in one bedroom for that time. I worked part time making pennies. Getting a degree was not even an option I am a bright person I should have had some kind of degree to do somethingmore meaningful than secretary. (I am going to get degre soon iyh) We got 0 help from parents they lived in thier huge paid up houses while we struggle. Now we need to move again bh we are making decent but after taxes insurance rent tuition ect. There is nothing left over We want to be financially secure and buy a house but where I live apartments are 1m and parents not offering help but yelling we shouldn't leave the community. Why are we in this mess?

Ironicly For the wedding at 18 there is money. But to get 4 kids out of a 600sf apartment there isn't. Our priorities as a community is screwed .
Btw this has influenced my decision to have less kids. If you have kids you have to take care of them even after they leave your nest. If not the parents then who?

amother

Ruby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 12:16 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Having a college degree is not a ticket to a high paying job, but it is a ticket to paying high student loans! I have a masters degree, and guess what- it turns out that my market is oversaturated, so finding a good high-paying job is difficult. Going to college is great if you want to be a doctor or lawyer... but there are great jobs, like computer jobs, which require skill, not a degree. You can become a computer programmer, cyber security expert or backend/frontend developer earning $80,000 per year within 12 month, IF you take responsibility and learn the skills needed to get this sort of job (there are more jobs than developers!). These employers, for the most part, want skill, not a degree. My high school graduate husband earns significantly more than me, because he learned skills, while I earned a piece of paper. And he doesn't have thousands of dollars in student loans either.

You are cheating yourself by focusing on a dream of having a college degree (which I can tell you doesn't mean much to employers who want skill and knowledge), when you should be focusing on how YOU can improve your situation by learning the skills employers want.

This is true if you are going into computers. Not everyone is skilled in that field.
Also, the people I know who work in hi tech do earn more and have an easier time getting jobs with a degree in computer science. But I am not located in the US, maybe it's different there.

cholentfan1

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 12:34 pm

I don't know why people are assuming OP is from the UK. I'm in the UK and if anything I see most people don't get degrees and can get decent jobs and aren't living in majorly cramped apartments. I personally have a BA Hons, which I did whilst working full time, with kids. But most people I know don't bother doing more than basic qualifications. Yes there are those that do higher education, but most jobs in the frum community don't need degrees. There's also benefits from the government which a lot of people will claim.

amother

Periwinkle

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 12:45 pm

cholentfan1 wrote:

I made the assumption. Totally based on the reference to "uni".

Elfrida

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:52 pm

Quote:

I made the assumption. Totally based on the reference to "uni".

I made the same assumption based on the same 'evidence'. Uni is not a term limited to England, but she doesn't seem to be in America.

It's over twenty years since I lived in England, and while there have been a lot of changes, the system there is still far more rigid than in America. The normal system expects you to finish school with three or four A-levels, and your university acceptance is dependent on those grades. A lot of Beis Yaakov type schools spend less time on A-levels to allow more time for kodesh (or in certain subjects the syllabus may be judged unsuitable, so they just don't offer that subject).

If the OP went to such a school, and from her post it seems likely that she did, she probably has one or two A-levels, or maybe just GCSEs, which would be a major hindrance to getting accepted into any course. And if it's important to her to be in a frum environment, that's going to limit her choices even more. There aren't nearly so many frum courses available in England as there are in America.

I don't know enough about what is available now to give her any serious advice. Getting educated and qualified at this stage has been done and can be done, but takes a few years of very hard work, and small children only complicate matters. The Open University might be one place to start looking. They are designed to accomodate people with other commitments.