Husband potched 5 year old for hitting

mommy201

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:55 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Because he's the Totty and the Torah recommends potching:

"He who withholds his rod, HATES his son" Mishlei

There is a medrash on this that actually does not mean what you think. Give me a few minutes while I find the source.

Why is Totty allowed to drive but a five year old can't?

This has nothing to do with parenting. Its safety boundaries. Saying its not ok to potch and then we potch, gives a child mixed messages. And the only reason why we can potch is because we are in control of little children since they need us to for survival. So let's take advantage of that and use it against them, because the Torah definitely advocates for controlling others. What happens when they are older and we are no longer in control of them? And technically they could fight back. Forget about damaging the whole relationship with a child forever and that they never actually learn anything, you are no longer in control of them since they don't need you for survival anymore.

Why is Mommy allowed to cook but a five year old can't?

These comparisons are really not comparisons at all. And yes, why cant a child help their mother cook. Yes, boundaries can be established but this is no way a comparison.[/I]

Why can a Parent put a kid in "time-out" or confiscate a belonging, but a kid can't do that to his parent?

They actually can do it to a parent and probably will shut them out when they are older. [/b]

This is liberal brainwashing that puts 5 y.o. on an equal level at parents/adults.

[I]It is actually controlling the kid and potching them that puts the parent and child on the same level. You show your kid that you have no self control just like children do. A parent who controls himself and empathizes with the child actually teaches a child what a real mature parent looks like.

There is a difference between how a parent hits and how a child hits:[/I]

A parent gives a smack on the bottom or hand - children hit on the head or back, often punch with a fist, kick, scratch. There is a difference.

The thing that is the same is that child and parent are both hitting out of anger. So in essence it kinds of put them on the same level.

Last edited by mommy201 on Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:58 pm; edited 3 times in total

Laiya

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:02 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I heard it does not HAVE to mean corporal punishment, the second half of the possuk talks about giving VERBAL Rebuke - but it can include corporal punishment.

There is no question that Jewish parents have a Mesorah of corporal punishment.
Teachers (Rebbeim) also used corporal punishment.

There is a halacha about not to hit children in the 3 weeks, or is it the 9 days.

Even Beis Din used corporal punishment on adults.

It's pretty much accepted across the board halachically that hitting a child out of anger is always wrong. The problem is that when parents rely on hitting, it often is done out of anger. Many feel it's better to never hit, to avoid hitting when they are angry which is wrong.

amother

Black

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:02 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Just want to say for all those, posting that they were potched and turned out fine, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not its a good idea.
As a child I was told on a few occasions that I was a monster, a bad girl, and a "disgusting" girl by my overwhelmed mother. I turned out fine, actually, but that still wasnt proper chinuch

I was beaten. With a belt. Regularly. And I'm pretty much OK.

My friend was forced to scrub toilets and clean the kitchen floor on her hands and knees before she was allowed to go to elementary school in the morning, and before she was allowed to do homework at night. She's also pretty much OK.

You're right. That's not the standard.

"Potch" is such a cute word. Let's call it what it is. Hitting. You hit your child.

And what message does that send? That hitting is OK when the person doing it is bigger than you.

A child who is hitting others out of frustration needs to learn other coping techniques. Sure, its fine to tell him to sit in the corner, or in his room, until he calms down enough to be with others. But when things are calm, try helping him with techniques. Even if, for a while, one of those techniques is hitting a pillow.

#BestBubby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:05 pm

mommy201 wrote:

Yes, the Torah says a Parent should control a child or the child will act out-of-control because he CAN.

Children do not "potch", they HIT. Only parents "Potch". Another example of putting
children on an equal status with children.

Even if the parent hits while angry - giving 1-2 potches is not being "out-of-control",
it is a MEASURED amount of discipline.

The Torah forbids hitting older children, but children who were raised with discipline when younger will usually (not always) be respectful when they are older.

There is an American generation that was raised in the era of no corporal punishment at home or in school. What is the result?

In 1940s the biggest discipline problems in school were gum-chewing, littering, and talking in class.

Today (far less spanking) the biggest discipline problems in public school are: school shootings, rape, assaults, robbery.

mommy201

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:06 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

When Totty puts a kid in "time-out" is Totty teaching a kid to imprison others?

When Totty confiscates a toy, is Totty teaching a kid to steal?

That is crazy liberal meshugas.

CHILDREN do understand the difference between parents and kids, although some
ADULTS here think that a child is EQUAL to a parent.

I don’t believe in time out because it causes disconnection. Ever since I stopped doing it my kids have been actually better behaved.

Yes in way confiscates a toy does not teach good things. I don’t believe in that either.

I also don’t believe that children are equal to parents and my kids know that.

It’s not either or.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:29 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

There is an American generation that was raised in the era of no corporal punishment at home or in school. What is the result?

In 1940s the biggest discipline problems in school were gum-chewing, littering, and talking in class.

Today (far less spanking) the biggest discipline problems in public school are: school shootings, rape, assaults, robbery.

This.

After all the fancy liberal anti spanking “studies” about nuanced negative effects of spanking, you do not need a PHD to see the negative effects of not spanking. Just look around at the carnage happening with today’s youth. The proof is in the pudding.

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:33 pm

OP, what do you think is behind your son's behavior change? Have you spoken with his teacher? What was going on last summer when this started?

What other discipline methods have you tried? What happened? Can you anticipate what situations will set him off?

In general, lots of positive, loving attention - especially for a misbehaving child - coupled with clear expectations and understandable consequences works for many families. There is a lot more to say about this, but we would need to know more about your child's situation to be able to make useful recommendations.

No, I don't potch. I am well into middle age, and for the most part my peers were not potched either. It isn't a new fad, and no, it doesn't mean the children are in charge. It can be tremendously difficult for a parent to control his or her frustration, but discipline works better when s/he does just that.

OP, if your child's behavior is really explosive and violent, the usual techniques might not be adequate. A consultation with a child psychologist or social worker may be in order.

mommy201

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:36 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Firstly about the pasuk earlier. "Choshech Shifto Soneh Bino" the literal translation is rod/sticks. But it is known not to be used in its literal term. Its actually compared to a shepherds stick like Moshe Rabeinu, and means to guide and lead. in essence it means to discipline (not hit).
The ksav sofer says that it actually means discipline for the parents and not the children.
Reb yaakov Weinberger says it means to discipline them to teach them to be good ppl. we have an obligation of chinuch and we are also required in all the other mitzvos that include "not to a hurt another human being, onas devarim....)This applies to parents as well. The only time you are allowed hurt physically, if it is the ONLY way to mechanech them because chinuch overrides. However, if there is a different way to be mechanech a child effectively you are not allowed to use this method and it is considered cruel. Since there is enough of other gentle parenting that works then all these methods are never ok.

mommy201

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:40 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Please find me a quote in the Torah that says parents need to control their children. I think you will only see quotes for learning to control yourself.

southernbubby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 4:02 pm

mommy201 wrote:

Please find me a quote in the Torah that says parents need to control their children. I think you will only see quotes for learning to control yourself.

Apparently it's a problem to let them run around during davening to the point that it disturbs people so there are times that parents need to control the kids.
If the teacher can't control the class, it's a problem and the parents expect the teacher to be able to do that.

There is a difference between a potch and child abuse but if you have a better way, then use it.

Kids love to test the limits.

mommy201

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 4:14 pm

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

Btw “powderblue” I was thinking of asking you if you were #bestbubby when I started reading what you wrote. Now I’m not sure if it’s 1 person under screen name or anonymous or 2 separate ppl :-)

mommy201

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 4:17 pm

leah233 wrote:

When some kid is bullying your child and the parents say it's not my responsibility to control them, do you really find that be an acceptable response?

Chas vshalom. But a better word would be to teach them. Not control. It’s actually more effective as well. Short term and long term. I am not against discipline. It’s just the how. I don’t believe in free-style parenting where kids can do whatever they want and never get any discipline - obviously this is not healthy as well.

mommy201

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 4:20 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Right. 100 percent. Kids need to be taught things at different times. I think ppl are using the word control in differ t contexts. I take it to mean control/force. Some people seem to mean it as taking a child out of a situation if the need arises and effectively communicating with them. There is definitely time and place for that.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 4:25 pm

mommy201 wrote:

Lol, if bestbubby is indeed a bubby she can probably be my mother lol, but guess we share the same opinion on this matter and are a little more old school and pro spanking when necessary. (Although it seems we are likely not from the same generation, I’m not quite ready to be a bubby, and it would certainly take some practice for me to be the best bubby LOL