Day Care | Imamother

amother

Wed, Sep 07 2005, 3:40 pm

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One woman who raised all 9 kids as a stay-at-home mother once told me (in one of my moments of depair), that if we don't feel like we are satisfied/happy/fulfilled being home raising the kids

I really disagree with this. If a bochur in yeshiva did not think that he was satisfied/happy/fulfilled in learning, we would try some different approaches, a new chavrusah, whatever, and then we would encourage him to go out and get a job. And he could still be considered a good person and an erliche yid. Staying home with nine kids is good for some people and not good for others. I know, from personal experience, that staying home full time with my kids would not be the best thing for them because I would go CRAZY. And I do not think I need to fit myself into a certain mold.

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I mean people whos priorities are themselves and NOT their babies

I don't know anyone like this.

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This whole working thing to make yourself feel better is a non jewish concept.

umm... this whole owning a house is a non jewish concept, this whole owning a car is a non jewish concept, this whole paying thousands and thousands of dollars in tuition is a non jewish concept, this whole credit card thing is a non jewish concept. You get the point.

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It used to be woman stayed home to take care of the family, and men supported.

What about all those women who owned shops and worked in factories so their husbands could learn ? Weren't there any of those ?

happymom

Wed, Sep 07 2005, 6:58 pm

Mommyoftwo I think its so nice that you care about the kids you are teaching... Im not saying you think like this but I know some people who are on shlichus and they are sooo involved in mikaraving people that they forget about their own kids. I know one shlucha who is doing amazing work but is never home and they have a live in [gentile] to take care of the kids... I was brought up on shluchus. My mother always said she would go to help my father in the office when all the kids were out of the house... she hasn't be able to yet but she will one day. whenever there was a program... she would be there but when it was the kids bed time.. she would leave early. Her attitude was you must help others but your kids come first because if you don't teach them and take care of them, who will? I am VERY grateful that my mother was ALWAYS there for me and thats why I feel like I should give that to my kids.

Amother, when I say non jewish concept, I mean the attitude people have. Some people used to work, and some people didn't. But now the world thinks men and woman must be equal. THis is the attitude that Im saying is non jewish... when woman who don't need the money think THEY HAVE TO work and that staying home with a baby isnt an option. Also amother, I do know people who put themselves before their babies... they put their babies in bad day cares because its cheap and they admit that the care isn't good but its convenient.... I am talking about these people... not everyone. I also know many people who work because they have to and they are very good mothers and try to find the best care for their babies... im not talking about everybody! I do however think that if a woman can stay home it is THE BEST option for the kids.

this is getting totally off topic.... my point was if you have a great babyistter great!! if not bad day care etc... I see it as a problem

Last edited by happymom on Wed, Sep 07 2005, 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Motek

Wed, Sep 07 2005, 8:32 pm

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If a bochur in yeshiva did not think that he was satisfied/happy/fulfilled in learning, we would try some different approaches, a new chavrusah, whatever, and then we would encourage him to go out and get a job.

Every single bachur has a place in Torah and needs to find his place. Every male has a mitzva of Talmud Torah and there are no exemptions for those who just don't like to learn. Some learn fulltime, others just a little bit a day, but that's another point.

What this has to do with mothers and their children I have no idea. Hashem created women physically and emotionally to raise their children. If in recent decades more and more women are finding that raising their children is not satisfying, we have the media and feminism to thank.

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if we don't feel like we are satisfied/happy/fulfilled being home raising the kids, then we have to find a way to teach ourselves to become that way. It's our most important role in life.

what a wise woman and how fortunate her children are!

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I mean people whos priorities are themselves and NOT their babies

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I don't know anyone like this.

Well sounds like you gave an example of that. There is nobody who can make a case for babies being raised better by people other than their mothers. Those mothers who just can't stand being home and leave their infants and toddlers with others are prioritizing themselves and not their babies. I can feel very sorry for them that they don't like being home, but that doesn't change the fact that their babies suffer and that they are putting themselves first.

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this whole owning a house is a non jewish concept, this whole owning a car is a non jewish concept, this whole paying thousands and thousands of dollars in tuition is a non jewish concept, this whole credit card thing is a non jewish concept. You get the point.

sorry, I don't get the point

since when is owning a home non jewish? the Gemara recommends it

since when is owning a car non jewish? any source for that?

since when is paying lots of money for tuition a non jewish concept? public schools are free, and schar limud is a Torah concept (that doesn't count in your yearly stipend along with your expenses for Shabbos and Yom Tov)

working to make yourself better, for self-fulfillment is a brand new idea that appeared just recently

until now, people worked to support their families and did not have careers but jobs

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What about all those women who owned shops and worked in factories so their husbands could learn ? Weren't there any of those ?

some, not many, not in Europe and not in other countries

others worked to subsist

the vast majority of women, Jewish and (l'havdil) not Jewish, were supported by their husbands

and why was your post anonymous?

Motek

Wed, Sep 07 2005, 8:33 pm

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I know one shlucha who is doing amazing work but is never home and they have a live in [gentile] to take care of the kids...

shame on her
she is not giving the Rebbe nachas with her messed up priorities

how about recommending to her that she learn the Rebbe's sicha about Chana and how when she gave birth to Shmuel she stayed home with him and did not go to Shiloh, even though she had the money and could have hired help either to stay at home with him or to take along. She knew that home was where she and the nursing baby belonged.

and happymom - your mother is A1 and I see her sense of priorities was conveyed to you Smile

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I do however think that if a woman can stay home it is THE BEST option for the kids.

Absolutely true. And let's acknowledge that. I want hear people speaking honestly, saying things like:

"I know that home and mommy are best for my children but ... " and THEN saying why they are not giving the best to the children, maybe for valid reasons, maybe not.

amother

Thu, Sep 08 2005, 9:32 pm

Okay motek let's be honest. You are right. I really should be staying home with my children but I am a selfish, materialistic woman who neglects her kids, wants to have a career and feel all feministy.

This is like arguing with a seventh grader.

There are children, kids of my very good friends, who are stay at home moms, who are completely dependent on their mommys, who are six years old and still in diapers, who can't start kindergarten because they are so attached to each other, who watch TV all day long, who are so violent that I can't let my children play with them. There are stay at home moms who hate being at home and take it out on their kids on a daily basis, by dumping them with neighbors or the TV and by physically abusing them

And there are great stay at home moms whose children are well adjusted and well-prepared for school and life. They daven each day with their mommies and paint and go to the library. They are happy and have excellent middos.

There are working mothers who are so stressed out and tired that they neglect their kids and barely feed them before collapsing in bed. There are working mothers who are so into money and status that they forget to love their children and miss out on the sweet kisses and baby smiles. There are working mothers who dump their kids with neighbors and babysitters and go off on week long meetings and are excited to not be bothered with feedings and diapers.

And there are working mothers who feel guilty about working and as a result, they rush home to be with their children, smile when they see them and kiss and hug them as if they've been gone a month when it's only been five hours. They make supper and talk to their kids about their day, they read books and do bathtime, they put every ounce of energy into making sure their children are well adjusted and eidel.

I don't think you will get the point but I will try one last time : what is best for the child depends on many factors and one of those factors is what kind of stay at home mom you will be and what kind of working mom you will be. There are so many working moms that are do a better job parenting in 3-4 hours than so many other stay at home moms do in a day. And vise-versa. Look around you people : do you see any working moms whose children turned out just fine ? Do you see any stay at home moms whose children need serious help in middos or otherwise ?

Again, one last time, just stop. Stop all the polarization, all the "either- or" stuff. It is useless and unproductive. The Torah does not condemn working parents and neither should you. For a nice example of the above sentence, check out eishes chayil and how much " working outside the home" is mentioned in that tfillah :

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A Woman of Valour, who can find? She is more precious than corals. Her husband places his trust in her and only profits thereby. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She seeks out wool and flax and cheerfully the work of her hands. She is like the trading ships, bringing food from afar. She gets up while it is still night to provide food for her household, and a fair share for her staff. She considers a field and purchases it and plants a vineyard with the fruit of her labors. She invests herself with strength and makes her arms powerful. She senses that her trade is profitable, her light does not go out at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff and her palms hold the spindle. She opens her hands to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. She has no fear of the snow for her household, for all her household is dressed in fine clothing. She makes her own coverlets; her clothing is of fine linen and luxurious cloth. Her husband is known at the gates, where he sits with he elders of the land. She makes and sells linens; she supplies the merchants with sashes. She is robed in strength and dignity and she smiles at the future. She opens her mouth with wisdom and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. She looks after the conduct of her household and never tastes the bread of sloth. Her children rise up and make her happy; her husband praises her: "Many women have excelled, but you outshine them all!" Grace is elusive and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears God--she shall be praised. Give her credit for the fruit of her labors and let her achievements praise her at the gates.

happymom

Thu, Sep 08 2005, 10:10 pm

Amother, Motek said and so did other people here that if a woman can be with her kids its the best choice. If she CAN BE means if she can be without going crazy.... I dont think anyone here is talking about working 2-3 hours a day... or half a day... having amazing child care... and being a great mother if you dont have a choice!!!... NOONE IS TALKING ABOUT THAT...... what this thread is about is the mothers you mentioned who work AND do not give their kids the best care...... who work but start when their babies are TINY.... who give their babies to babysitter s that they know aren't good because its CONVENIENT..... Just like you feel like you are repeating yourself... so Do I. I know you were talking to Motek but motek and other people didnt say that staying home means you are a good mother and not staying home means you are a bad one. Obviously if a mother stays home and it turns to abuse because of how much she hates it that is a mAJOR problem........ If you think there is nothing wrong with working... why do you think they would feel guilty? (Besides I think woman who cant handle being with alot of kids maybe shouldnt have alot but thats a whole different story that I dont want to get into...) I dont understand what is making you so upset.

Motek

Thu, Sep 08 2005, 10:39 pm

why do you post anonymously ms. amother?

7th grader hmmm, what a mature way of presenting your view

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what is best for the child depends on many factors and one of those factors is what kind of stay at home mom you will be and what kind of working mom you will be.

Which magazine or current pop parenting book says that?

Let's talk about a great stay at home mother versus a working mother who does her best, when she's home that is.

Which is better for the children?

How about this:

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What is best for a woman, being single or being married, depends on many factors. She might be a productive single woman, giving to her community and society or she could be in a miserable marriage. What is best for a woman really depends on her support system if single. Does she have friends, family ... And for a married woman, well, what's her husband like? Is he kind, caring?

Is there something wrong with this view?

Depends on where your head is, secular culture or the Torah world.

amother

Fri, Sep 09 2005, 12:02 am

Why am I so upset ? The reason is because yet again, for the millionth time on this forum, we are taking personal preference and making it into a religious issue. Just like whether or not you trust modern science does not reflect on your being a good Jew, so too whether you stay home or go to work does not reflect on your being a good Jew. Motek seems to disagree and thinks that the Torah world all agrees that a woman must stay home. I would like an explanation, if that is the case, why eshes chayil is replete with examples of a woman who clearly works outside the home and is valued for that. Shouldn't our quintessential example of the perfect wife and mother have been all about a woman who spends all her time at home with her kids ?

Why do I post anonymously ? Well, I have been posting anonymously through out this whole thread and I have posted some identifying information. Why are you so insistent on knowing who I am ? What difference does that make to the argument ?