Religious Zionist rabbonim against plastic disposables

Raisin

Thu, Oct 03 2019, 6:44 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I started using far less disposables when I got a dishwasher. The dishwasher has probably already paid for itself in less paper goods bought!

I would use even less paper goods if I could come up with enough money to get a big enough matching set for all of our Shabbos guests. Although it would pay for itself over time, like this I'm only spending a few dollars a week as opposed to scraping together a few hundred dollars all at once.

My biggest problem with environmentalism is time. When we had a friend that picked up our compost and added it to her pile, I was very happy to compost. It was just a matter of rerouting peels and food scraps to a different bin. But if I will also have to shlep it outside, stir it, find enough brown matter to add to it, make sure not to overwhelm the pile, keep away animals or buy worms... I am already overwhelmed with my life. I can't also adopt a baby compost pile. If our city would start compost pickup (or if I could even find a service here that would pick up...) I would be very happy about it. I always feel guilty to throw compostable food out.

(My friend told us that the compostable plates are only really good for city compost, a home pile doesn't break them down fast enough, and they would constantly blow away all over her yard.)

A few people have mentioned this but I will again. Ikea has really nice plain white plates, similar material to corelle. Called oftast. I paid 50c each when I first bought them but now they have gone up to 75c. In the us they charge $1 each. Either way you can buy a set for 20 people for a maximum of $60. Thats less then a papergoods bill for one yom tov if you get the slightly fancier ones.

Dress them up with nice napkins and napkin rings. Either way they are nicer then even the nicest plastic plates you can get. (which are often quite expensive)

They also have some more expensive coloured ones for 1.50 or so but they chip very easily.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 03 2019, 7:55 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

I didnt read the entire thread, really just the OP.
I live in Israel, and I buy disposable and use them every single day of the week, except for shabbat. Our apartment is too small for a dishwasher and my husband refuses to do dishes (lets not turn this thread into a shalom bayis thing.) I refuse to do dishes all of the time, so to compromise, my husband "splurges" and buys plastic for the week and thats how we live. Am I happy that we are hurting the environment? No. But am I willing to become the dish rag that washes the dishes from all meals, all week? No. And yes, I know, I can teach my husband to wash dishes. Trust me, I tried. He is unteachable. And he is unwilling most of the time.
So, you tell me, whats more important, my shalom bayis or the environement at this very moment in time? But thanks for judging people who do always use plastic.

I am not sure what makes you feel that someone is judging those who always use plastic. The point is to encourage those who can avoid plastic disposables to make the switch. The rabbonim are not trying to create resistance but cooperation. Posters here are mainly saying that they are successful with reducing plastic waste so that those who are able to can use the advice.
If someone here is cutting sugar out of their diet but I am not ready to do it yet, should I not at least praise their efforts?

amother

Orchid

Thu, Oct 03 2019, 8:03 am

southernbubby wrote:

This.
Some people cannot serve their kids healthy home-cooked meals because they have no time; they work long hours, they have no money, whatever. No one is blaming them, but we all know it's not an ideal situation. Hopefully when their home life calms down they can start serving healthy food.
Same with using disposables. Some people feel they need to use them because their life is just too crazy right now. Fine, but it's not ideal, and the rest of us should be trying to stop with the disposables if we can.
The whole point of raising awareness is to make people think twice. Do we really need the disposables?

amother

Silver

Thu, Oct 03 2019, 8:18 am

Give me two sinks and two dishwashers and I won't ever use plastic again.
But that requires a larger apartment- which will cause more pollution between heating/cooling, less population density so poorer public transit and greater need for private cars, etc etc.
Environmental issues are all about trade-offs. Israelis have small homes, large families, and religious practices that incentivizes single use plastic. Raise the cost of plastic and I'll stop (which will happen the day the US raises taxes on gas to discourage pollution- aka never.).

amother

Brunette

Thu, Oct 03 2019, 8:53 am

Teomima wrote:

Some responses (sorry, too many to quote everyone):

*There's no way your water bill is higher than the cost of plastics unless you leave the water running. The actual amount of water used when you wash your dishes properly is negligible.

I'm glad you are so sure of this (sarcasm). I'm the amother whose water bill is around $200 a month and we are extremely makpid to wash dishes without keeping water running. In fact, when I get the occasional cleaning lady, I do not have them wash dishes since they invariably do keep the water running. Why not just accept that some localities have extremely high water rates rather than say "it's not possible?"

We are slightly derailing, but to respond to Southern Bubby that her water bill in Detroit was never high unless watering lawns, well, sorry, but ours is and many neighbors of ours are as well, and nor do I water the lawn or fill wading pools. If you are on facebook, this is the #1 topic on the Oak Park fb page (not Jewish) where people's bills will suddenly spike to crazy numbers like $1,000 a month where both the plumber and the city come down to the house and both confirm no leaks or faulty running toilets. There is something rotten in the state of Detroit with the water and I hope someone goes to jail over this. In the meantime, it's plastics for us, thank you very much.

sima

Thu, Oct 03 2019, 4:32 pm

I completely agree and I'm so happy people are finally speaking out. We have a responsibility. Everyone has to do something. We cannot point fingers at others and say they should do it. If everyone did just a bit, think how far we would progress. Now please can we have the same in NY, Brooklyn, etc.....

I've used and still use some plastic disposables and I am not proud of it. Yes, I am one of the overworked, exhausted ones. But c'mon an extra couple of minutes washing won't kill me. I want to cut it completely, who is with me???

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 03 2019, 6:45 pm

sima wrote:

I usually do use real dishes but can still find ways to improve when we have a lot of company.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 03 2019, 6:50 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Is this Detroit thing recent? We moved away in January but were empty nesters. It has been awhile since I was doing laundry and showers for a whole family. Monsey does have cheaper water than Detroit but not significantly.

amother

Sienna

Fri, Oct 04 2019, 12:08 am

I'm sorry, I only skimmed the responses and I know I'm a bit late to the party. But this is something I've been thinking about since we just made Aliyah and immediately noticed the disposable stuff everywhere and started using it a lot ourselves.

So first of all it's a lot cheaper and also more cheaply made than the disposables in the states. Takes up a lot less room in the trash. When our lift came and I saw some of the paper towels etc. that we had in the States, I couldn't believe how big and puffy they were... it's a different breed of disposables here.

But that's not a reason to start using them. What DID get me start using them is: Our apartment compared to our old house is tiny. We have one little sink and hardly any counter space. No dishwasher or place for one. And whereas in the States we had a cleaning lady come twice a week (who would wash any dairy dishes as well as any meat dishes that I hadn't put in the dishwasher), here I don't think we will have that help. Not only is my husband's salary way lower, but also where we live there are no non-Jews to hire and I'm not comfortable hiring my Jewish neighbor to clean my house. So it's an entirely different way of life.

Those who are judging people using disposables: Remember that there is an entire context and picture to the way people live. Your calculations may not transfer to their life. To make disposables less ubiquitous here would probably also take more dishwashers, space, etc. I have no doubt that if I was committed to using only real stuff I could do it. But on a large scale, it makes sense to realise that there are other factors in place than just desire and commitment alone.

That's all... And I also hope that once we have our stuff unpacked and are more settled, we will go back to using more real things. It took me a long time to even find a dishpan to use to soak my dirty dishes in. (Our one sink is treif.)

amother

Orchid

Fri, Oct 04 2019, 12:35 am

I expect if disposables will be banned or taxed here, adjustments will be made. Dishwashers will become more of a priority.

Dishwashers don't entirely solve the problem anyway. Many people use theirs only for meat or only for milk, which means there is always a load on the counter. Unless you have 2 dishwashers, which is rare here.

In any case, each of us can only do what we can. Not all the millions of Israelis using disposables have huge families, tiny apartments, f/t jobs and husbands who refuse to help.

(Btw, most new apartments today do have room for a dishwasher. A lot of older ones, when renovated, try to find room to install one. Probably within 5 years most people will have one, especially if disposables are less available).

amother

Sienna

Fri, Oct 04 2019, 1:38 am

You're right... if disposables would be discouraged or banned, dishwashers would probably become more of a priority.

I guess I'm just saying that it's not only an individual choice or caring thing... It depends a lot on the conditions. It would be great if conditions in general would change to make using real dishes more attainable. They're also just nicer to use!

And I guess it was also just interesting to me how different life is without the dishwasher/cleaning lady that I got used to...

Also for whoever mentioned using just real flatware with the disposable plates and bowls--I've done that at times. It can get messy though, especially with kids, with a real spoon tipping over a flimsy bowl full of milk or soup! I often give just the little kids disposable spoons for that reason.

amother

Orchid

Fri, Oct 04 2019, 1:43 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

It can get messy though, especially with kids, with a real spoon tipping over a flimsy bowl full of milk or soup! I often give just the little kids disposable spoons for that reason.

Actually disposables can sometimes cause more mess.
The flimsy Israeli cups get knocked over ALL the time. I only let my kids drink water in them.

Also, I hate putting hot food on disposables. It feels like we are eating chemicals.

amother

Sienna

Fri, Oct 04 2019, 3:36 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

Oh for sure. I was just talking about this exact combination that I don't like to give kids. Disposable/disposable, or real/real.

And those flimsy cups not only tip over but my baby squishes them. Never fails to spill water all over himself. Although, on the positive, they can't be broken by being dropped on the floor.

Yes, I know there are non-disposable plastic cups... To me they are the worst of two worlds though because they do require storage and cleaning, but they never seem to get quite clean to me the way glass does.

Re hot food on disposables I agree. Is it better on styrofoam? I actually haven't seen those for sale here.