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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:49 am
Ruchel wrote:
Be careful with the citizenship, I know people who had problems and had to send their sons abroad


Yeah, we would definitely be citizens. And good to know there are places with good chol. Thank you!
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 1:30 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Yeah, we would definitely be citizens. And good to know there are places with good chol. Thank you!


I don't know if this is so relevant but there's a yeshivah here that does part time army service - they learn programming and work for the army in that area. So something like that would mean 1. Your kid won't be drafted into the intensive service and 2. They end up with a degree in programming and computers - so parnassah.
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amother




Mistyrose


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 8:31 pm
Rappel wrote:
That sounds unnecessarily complicated. It's so easy to not draft, and there are so many benefits to being a full citizen, that I can't see why you would go that route.


We lived that way for years. I think my father had to travel to renew his work visa but I’m not sure- we were considered tayarim toshavim or something to that effect. Used our maccabi number instead of teudat Zehut most places sometimes passport number.

(My parents loved back to the us after more than 2 decades because my grandmother became sick... unrelated)

It definitely prevented army issues- my cousin who is a citizen just sat in jail last year for refusing to enlist and he’s in yeshiva full time... my brothers and I can go back to study in israel without any issues. My brother considered going to the army and that was obviously not an issue either.

The only thing that came up is during one of the wars/ intifada we had to pay for our own gas masks I think. Otherwise my parents paid taxes and we got healthcare etc.
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tachles




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 8:39 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
Also you can move here on an american visa and NOT become citizens if you want.
Many many people do that, you get the israeli healthcare and get to do everything else although you won't receive aliyah benefits. But the plus side is that your kids won't have to deal with the army.


You absolutely can NOT be covered on Israeli health insurance (kupot) with a visa. You would be uninsured.
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tachles




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 8:45 pm
I see mistyroses reply now, if your info is from years ago it could be things changed. A relative checked recently and the kupot would not cover her on a visa.
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amother




Indigo


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 8:47 pm
tachles wrote:
You absolutely can NOT be covered on Israeli health insurance (kupot) with a visa. You would be uninsured.


Of course you can. How do you think all students are covered?

We've been here on my dh's student visa for 7 years and counting. And I have a work permit.

All those who start off learning here, but have plans to move away, do this. No idea why your relative had issues, but everyone else manages to do it.
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amother




Mistyrose


Post  Wed, Oct 09 2019, 8:52 pm
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
Of course you can. How do you think all students are covered?

We've been here on my dh's student visa for 7 years and counting. And I have a work permit.

All those who start off learning here, but have plans to move away, do this. No idea why your relative had issues, but everyone else manages to do it.


This. Also private insurance is very cheap so insurance is the least of issues.
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Elfrida




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:32 am
You can be covered on kupat cholim with a tourist visa. Possibly not a short term visa, but student or tisha is fine. I work for one of the kuppot, and I see it all the time. You have to pay a lote more than Israeli citizens, though.
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amother




Cerulean


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:55 am
I really want to understand. How is it ok to come to a country and reap the benefits without contributing in return? Why is your son so much more precious then every other beautiful Israeli boy that he should start his career early and not have to go to the army like everyone else?
I am asking respectfully as I really want to understand if you have thought about this and have a reason.
I really do appreciate those talmidei chachamim that learn all day and keep our country going spiritually, but to move here and totally negate the culture/ sacrifice/ reality of all other Jewish brothers and sisters that keep the country alive is so strange to me.
I am quite surprised at how many frum women have advise how to cheat the system when it is OUR system we are talking about, OUR country and
homeland, and of course our fellow yidden and JEWISH MOTHERS who do send their boys out to war that we are hurting.
(Again not talking about those that are really learning full time).
It just feels quite hurtful to me, as someone who’s husband and sons were/are/ will be in the army that so many of my fellow imas are so oblivious to that part of Israeli life, and can go on living as though they are in just any country in the world.
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amother




Honeydew


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:10 am
Cerulean, thank you for bringing this up.
And thank you for sharing your husband and dear children with klal Yisroel.
May Hashem guard them and give you much nachas from your dear family.
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rivkam




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 2:13 am
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
I really want to understand. How is it ok to come to a country and reap the benefits without contributing in return? Why is your son so much more precious then every other beautiful Israeli boy that he should start his career early and not have to go to the army like everyone else?
I am asking respectfully as I really want to understand if you have thought about this and have a reason.
I really do appreciate those talmidei chachamim that learn all day and keep our country going spiritually, but to move here and totally negate the culture/ sacrifice/ reality of all other Jewish brothers and sisters that keep the country alive is so strange to me.
I am quite surprised at how many frum women have advise how to cheat the system when it is OUR system we are talking about, OUR country and
homeland, and of course our fellow yidden and JEWISH MOTHERS who do send their boys out to war that we are hurting.
(Again not talking about those that are really learning full time).
It just feels quite hurtful to me, as someone who’s husband and sons were/are/ will be in the army that so many of my fellow imas are so oblivious to that part of Israeli life, and can go on living as though they are in just any country in the world.


As someone who made aliyah as an adult, I can understand not wanting your children to serve in the army/sherut leumi because it's just so alien to people coming from chul. In America you dont feel a need to serve your country whereas in israel it is part of the culture.

I do plan to send my kids to the army (hopefully moshiach will come before then) and dh served in the army but coming to israel I didn't feel this great need to serve the country. I did look into sherut leumi but they dont give you enough money to live off so I couldn't do it as well as the fact that I really couldn't speak hebrew at the time. I was advised to not do it.
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eli7




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 2:16 am
OP, here's a little glimpse at the beauty of the Hesder system, just to give you some more food for thought:

https://www.israelnationalnews.....69963
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amother




Honeydew


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 2:27 am
[quote="eli7"]OP, here's a little glimpse at the beauty of the Hesder system, just to give you some more food for thought:

https://www.israelnationalnews.....quote
]
Thank you.
Am Yisroel Chai
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essie14




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 3:38 am
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
I really want to understand. How is it ok to come to a country and reap the benefits without contributing in return? Why is your son so much more precious then every other beautiful Israeli boy that he should start his career early and not have to go to the army like everyone else?
I am asking respectfully as I really want to understand if you have thought about this and have a reason.
I really do appreciate those talmidei chachamim that learn all day and keep our country going spiritually, but to move here and totally negate the culture/ sacrifice/ reality of all other Jewish brothers and sisters that keep the country alive is so strange to me.
I am quite surprised at how many frum women have advise how to cheat the system when it is OUR system we are talking about, OUR country and
homeland, and of course our fellow yidden and JEWISH MOTHERS who do send their boys out to war that we are hurting.
(Again not talking about those that are really learning full time).
It just feels quite hurtful to me, as someone who’s husband and sons were/are/ will be in the army that so many of my fellow imas are so oblivious to that part of Israeli life, and can go on living as though they are in just any country in the world.

Thank you for saying this so beautifully. My son is serving now and another is going in shortly. My DD did sherut leumi. It's the highest honor I can have. DH and I are immensely proud of them.
There are so many options for all different types of people to serve our country. Every day that we all live here, or visit, is a miracle from Hashem. There are chareidi Hesder programs.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 3:51 am
tachles wrote:
You absolutely can NOT be covered on Israeli health insurance (kupot) with a visa. You would be uninsured.


Of course you can! Students and many people live in other countries for periods of time without becoming a citizen. I know many many people who have healthcare on a visa.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 3:56 am
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
I really want to understand. How is it ok to come to a country and reap the benefits without contributing in return? Why is your son so much more precious then every other beautiful Israeli boy that he should start his career early and not have to go to the army like everyone else?
I am asking respectfully as I really want to understand if you have thought about this and have a reason.
I really do appreciate those talmidei chachamim that learn all day and keep our country going spiritually, but to move here and totally negate the culture/ sacrifice/ reality of all other Jewish brothers and sisters that keep the country alive is so strange to me.
I am quite surprised at how many frum women have advise how to cheat the system when it is OUR system we are talking about, OUR country and
homeland, and of course our fellow yidden and JEWISH MOTHERS who do send their boys out to war that we are hurting.
(Again not talking about those that are really learning full time).
It just feels quite hurtful to me, as someone who’s husband and sons were/are/ will be in the army that so many of my fellow imas are so oblivious to that part of Israeli life, and can go on living as though they are in just any country in the world.


I pay taxes. We encourage children to help out organizations, do chessed, things for the city.
I really dislike the phrase you use "to cheat the system". When the system was MADE one of the stipulations the gedolei yisroel said needs to be is that yeshiva bochurim don't go to the army. It's supposed to be a PART of the system.

We NEED their learning, it's a part of the system, and if you can't see that I can't make you see that. We live in a physical world where we can not see the effects in front of our eyes but we do need people learning we need the SAME AMOUNT of people learning as on the physical battlefield.

What makes our little army face so many wars in victory that seem impossible?
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 3:59 am
essie14 wrote:
Thank you for saying this so beautifully. My son is serving now and another is going in shortly. My DD did sherut leumi. It's the highest honor I can have. DH and I are immensely proud of them.
There are so many options for all different types of people to serve our country. Every day that we all live here, or visit, is a miracle from Hashem. There are chareidi Hesder programs.


Like the one I mentioned that deal in high tech so your children do not have to be exposed to army and it's influences.
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amother




Mistyrose


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 5:37 am
The right to return is not limited to Zionists. If your hashkafa is not one that meshes with going to the army, should you not consider Aliya? Should you (a large percentage of chareidim) move out?

I agree that just ‘not wanting’ to serve in the army is hard to hear but still don’t think that should keep ppl from making Aliya.

Signed,
A yoredet (as a child) that would love to come back. Is forever grateful to chayalim but follows rabbanim that hold women may never serve in an army.

(Ps. My brother was going to enlist, but couldn’t for other reasons. As an America citizen he had a choice... so it’s not like you can’t. You’re just not forced to make the decision at the same time as you’re overhauling the rest of your life (Aliya))
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amother




Lime


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 5:51 am
LovesHashem wrote:
I pay taxes. We encourage children to help out organizations, do chessed, things for the city.
I really dislike the phrase you use "to cheat the system". When the system was MADE one of the stipulations the gedolei yisroel said needs to be is that yeshiva bochurim don't go to the army. It's supposed to be a PART of the system.

We NEED their learning, it's a part of the system, and if you can't see that I can't make you see that. We live in a physical world where we can not see the effects in front of our eyes but we do need people learning we need the SAME AMOUNT of people learning as on the physical battlefield.

What makes our little army face so many wars in victory that seem impossible?


There are a lot more full time learners now than there were in 1948 or 1967, and those were easily the most miraculous victories so far. Not to mention that it's currently being hazmanim, the kollelim are off, and the country doesn't seem to have collapsed. Can you imagine the army taking off ten weeks a year?
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amother




Pumpkin


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 6:05 am
I'm chareidi and I've lived in Israel for 15 years on a visa.
We did not make aliyah because originally we were only planning on coming for short term. If my sons want to join the army, they can, but it will be a choice that they make.

Do I believe that my son's life is more valuable than your son's? Chas v'sholom! I do not believe in mandatory draft for anyone and I believe that your son should have the same choice as my son.
I think the whole system is wrong and I know a few non-religious Israelis who made yeridah because of it.
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