DH asks,Does G-d really care

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:56 am

1ofbillions wrote:

I respectfully disagree with the recommendation to listen to Rabbi Ashear’s content. As a person who’s struggled with similar questions as OP’s husband since I was 10, his approach really turns me off. It’s all emotional and not evidence based. Yes, sometimes awesome things happen after someone has faith they’ll happen, but many times they don’t, and then what? IMHO he’s only inspiring to people who don’t think deeply.

I don’t want to take this thread off topic, so if you disagree then please start another thread. Just want to prevent the OP from advising her husband to listen to this rabbi’s speeches, thereby turning him even more cynical, which is what happened to me.

On a different note, it is healthy and normal to doubt religion. It is evidence that your husband is a thinking, authentic person; not just a product of society’s norms. Religious observance is a journey with ups and downs per to Rav Dessler - that’s how humans were created. I wish you and your husband lots of success on your journeys. This is what makes life meaningful! Smile

I'm interested in your perspective because you seem like a thinking person. I'm curious why you think it's "healthy and normal" to doubt religion? I disagree with you on this. I think the system does everything possible to ensure we don't question religion. This is mainly done by not acknowledging anything but our beliefs. This is why the op responded to her dh that had he worked on yk, his computer would have broken. This is a simplistic, naive comment that demonstrates that the op is a million miles away from questioning anything. In a way, this is a good place to be.
This actually becomes problematic when one starts to question things as an adult. I can ask my rav who doesn't delve into ahiestic arguments, so he's not really in position to argue with what they say. Furthermore as religious people we MUST believe that everything in the Torah is true. So if something doesn't seem to make sense we never conclude it isn't true, we just twist it into a pretzel and kvetch an answer. Or we say that even though we don't understand, it's true anyway. This is hardly logical. Ultimately, my point is that very often the questions are far better than the answers and once a person goes down this road, they will never be satisfied.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:00 am

The question itself can't be answered because it's not a standalone question.

We know Hashem cares because He says He cares.

Why?
Hashem doesn't choose to explain that question fully.

Do you believe that Hashem exists?
That Hashem is telling the truth when He says He wants something?
That Hashem notices what we do?
That Hashem is creating the world continuously Yesh Me'Ayin?
That Hashem cares about every minute detail of the world?

Do you understand that Hashem created the world in a way that a mitzvah has a global effect?
Do you know about the sparks of Kedusha trapped in the world, that are released through your actions?
Do you feel that your mitzvos affect others and the world at large?

Do you believe that the Torah's words are true?
Do you believe that the Chachomim are sharing Torah wisdom passed down from the time of Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai?

It's a general Emunah question.

But in reality, the person asking is generally NOT asking an Emunah question at all.

It might be, "Why do I feel so depressed and unfulfilled?"
"Why do I have to feel guilted into doing these boring mitzvos?"
"Why can't I be doing X like I really want to do?"

Emunah questions are generally not answered on one foot.
Worldviews are usually not radically changed in .5 seconds.

Emotional questions even more so.

The only short answer that can be given is, "Many people have struggled with these feelings and doubts over the 3000+ years since Matan Torah. I don't have the answers for you, but if we look I'm sure we will find them."

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:41 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

The question itself can't be answered because it's not a standalone question.

Hashem cares because He says He cares.

Why?
Hashem doesn't choose to explain that question fully.

Do you believe that Hashem exists?
That Hashem is telling the truth when He says He wants something?
That Hashem notices what we do?
That Hashem is creating the world continuously Yesh Me'Ayin?
That Hashem cares about every minute detail of the world?

Do you understand that Hashem created the world in a way that a mitzvah has a global effect?
Do you know about the sparks of Kedusha trapped in the world, that are released through your actions?
Do you feel that your mitzvos affect others and the world at large?

Do you believe that the Torah's words are true?
Do you believe that the Chachomim are sharing Torah wisdom passed down from the time of Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai?

It's a general Emunah question.

But in reality, the person asking is generally NOT asking an Emunah question at all.

It might be, "Why do I feel so depressed and unfulfilled?"
"Why do I have to feel guilted into doing these boring mitzvos?"
"Why can't I be doing X like I really want to do?"

Emunah questions are generally not answered on one foot.
Worldviews are usually not radically changed in .5 seconds.

Emotional questions even more so.

The only short answer that can be given is, "Many people have struggled with these feelings and doubts over the 3000+ years since Matan Torah. I don't have the answers for you, but if we look I'm sure we will find them."

Where does hashem say he cares about our tefilos?

amother

cornflower

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:45 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

Where does hashem say he cares about our tefilos?

I don't know where you're coming from, so it's kind of hard to answer such a question.

Will you only accept a source in Torah Shebichsav?
Will a quote from Torah Shebaal Peh satisfy you?
Will an explanation from Chassidus give you clarity?

Throughout Tanach we see the concept of Hashem listening to Tefillos. Avraham Avinu, Yetziyas Mitzrayim, Tefillas Chana are only some.

But if you doubt that Hashem pays attention to every detail of the world, it will be easy to discount the above.

Like I said, Emunah questions - and even more so emotional questions - do not lend themselves to pat or short answers.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 2:06 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I don't know where you're coming from, so it's kind of hard to answer such a question.

Will you only accept a source in Torah Shebichsav?
Will a quote from Torah Shebaal Peh satisfy you?
Will an explanation from Chassidus give you clarity?

Throughout Tanach we see the concept of Hashem listening to Tefillos. Avraham Avinu, Yetziyas Mitzrayim, Tefillas Chana are only some.

But if you doubt that Hashem pays attention to every detail of the world, it will be easy to discount the above.

Like I said, Emunah questions - and even more emotional questions - do not lend themselves to pat or short answers.

Tefila today is very different than the tefila described in the Torah and tenach. Namely that in those days people davened and hashem answered. Unfortunately, today there is virtually no correlation between davening and getting results. Which is why I'm always so confused that we make such a huge fuss about the importance of davening during the yamim noraim and asking hashem for health, parnassah, and the like, when it's plain to see that while I don't know hashems cheshbon in deciding everything, it's most certainly not based on who's davening and who's not. That's pretty obvious.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 2:31 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

Do you think that Chana had never davened until that fateful day in the Beis Hamikdash?
Or that the Yidden never cried out to Hashem in all of their suffering until then?
Do you think that nobody besides that one poor bee-stung girl ever prayed from the terrible deeds of Sedom and Amorah?
Or that no Yidden davened for salvation until Haman's decree?

So many unanswered tefillos... or were they?

The correlations in this world are not clear.
The answers are not immediate.

They cannot be.

To have a world with free choice, there can be no obvious cause-and-effect relationships.
If you were kicked in the head every time you spoke Lashon Hara, you would stop.
If eating a cheeseburger made you throw up every time, you wouldn't eat them.

If davening to Hashem led to miraculous results immediately every time, we'd all be praying nonstop.
If giving tzedakah led to instant wealth, giving would be no challenge.

Part of Golus is that Hashem is hidden in the world.
That spirituality is less than obvious.

But...

None of that will speak to you if you are coming from a place of pain.
No logical explanations can "fix" things if this is your expression of crying out to Hashem.

The other question you raise is about determinism.

If Hashem already decided what is going to be, why bother?
If Hashem knows better than I, why should I ask to change things?
If Hashem runs the world, do I need to interfere?

...And again, the answer is yes...

Hashem WANTS us to.
Hashem ASKS us to.
Hashem desires our acknowledgement that He is in charge, and that Hashem has the power to CHANGE things.

None of these things will change your feelings in a moment.
Being in a place of pain and frustration is real.
The Yidden also felt trapped in Mitzrayim... at the Yam Suf... during the days of Haman's threatened holocaust.

We know from the Torah that Tefillah helps.
Do we know why sometimes that help is obvious, and others not?
Why sometimes - even only in retrospect - we can see that we were answered?

Knowing does not always mean understanding in an obvious way.

There is a bigger picture that we are not always privy to.
The story of the ones who traveled with Eliyahu Hanavi...
Moshe Rabbeinu in search of understanding Hashem's justice...

Sometimes Tefillah only helps in a subjective way...
Such as in the story of the Baal Shem Tov and the miserable/content water carrier.
Is that a Tefillah success story? Why not?

The more we learn, the more we can appreciate...

And eventually, it should filter into our feelings.
And hopefully, we will start being able to notice the hidden twists that come through our tefillos.

Until the time we hope will be very soon, when the veil will be lifted and we will see all of the cause and effect very clearly. We want Moshiach now!

amother

Khaki

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 6:02 am

G-d does not need us, but for reasons unknown to us, G-d chose to create the universe and us in it. It seems that He wants us to exist. Does He care what we do? It seems that yes, because He interacted openly with humans in the past and He gave us an elaborate written and oral instruction manual on what to do with our lives for all times. It includes mention of reward and punishment, so to me that implies that He does care even while leaving us free choice and not forcing us. It doesn't stop at instructions. He even asks us to love Him. Think Sh'ma Yisrael. That means for whatever reasons He wants a personal relationship with us. Real love requires more than just words and more than a warm fluffy feeling. It requires doing things for the one whom one loves and giving of oneself and wanting to be as one. What can we do for G-d who is so different from us and on such an exalted level and how can we give of ourselves and in a way become "one" with Him? Well, through the mitzvot. G-d does not need tefillot or our learning or candles or korbanot. They are all ways to build a relationship. Anyone's husband/wife/children/friends also don't "need" gifts, hugs, friendly words and smiles. They could live without that. Maybe you could even have a relationship with them without that. But what kind of relationship. OP, did you ask your dh why he wanted to work on Yom Kippur, what he thought it would give him? I would ask that question. Just speculating, but maybe deep down he just feels very disappointed and lonely and wants to force a reaction out of Hashem, to test if He is there and cares about Him? Maybe the real question is, does G-d care about me (instead of "us"). The answer is yes. But kicking down the door is not the best way to find out.

amother

Violet

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:09 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

The "system" tries to squelch questions. That doesn't mean that Yiddishkeit tries to ensure we don't question.

It reminds me of what teachers sometimes do in secular studies, as well as Limudei Kodesh: they try to teach things in the most simplistic way to ensure that the maximum number of students understand. They will leave things out to avoid confusion and questions. This is particularly prevalent with math teachers, and it causes issues when an "exception" case arises or when there is more than one way to approach a problem.

This is how we are taught in Bais Yaakov about emunah. Just take the easiest way forward, don't question, and don't put ideas in other people's minds if they didn't think of the questions on their own. It's understandable, but damaging. It doesn't mean that this is how it's supposed to be in Yiddishkeit.

The Rambam actually says that we must question and come to an understanding out of seichel, not just emunah peshuta. I don't think everyone follows that, but at the bare minimum, "da ma shetashiv l'apikorus" means your own inner apikorus.

I don't know if I'm so impressed with OP's answer. It shows a childlike relationship to Yiddishkeit and Hashem. Perhaps it's time to start learning to be able to at least realize that DH is far from the first one to ask questions, and that his questions are compelling.

The great thing about already being Jewish and not starting from scratch as a ger/giyores is that if we are questioning, we are still Yidden.

I posted not too long ago about a deep struggle with emunah born of terrible pain. Many posters responded that "hatred still indicates a relationship with G-d." It's more nuanced than "we must believe in everything" and "anyone who doesn't believe is a kofer."

Yes, the questions are often better than the answers- and yet, I believe that most people who make a choice not to believe are doing so out of pain. There's more to the story than "I made a rational decision that I no longer believe in G-d."

People who feel the connection may know that they don't understand everything, but they understand, in a harmonious way between mind and soul, that G-d is there, that He cares about them, and that Yiddishkeit is true.

marina

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 8:19 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I don’t think questions about emunah are proxies for depression or boredom or jealousy like you seem to imply. Many people have genuine intellectual doubts and questions abt religion unrelated to any emotional issues.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 8:25 am

marina wrote:

True, but when the question comes about as a result of a steady decline, and is phrased in terms like "what's the point," I will sooner assume emotion than logic. Of course, logic can cause the emotional disconnect as well.

Either way, though, Emunah questions do not lend themselves to short answers. Yiddishkeit is not that simplistic.

However, those with doubts should be aware that they are not the first and will not be the last with those questions. The sefer Moreh Nevuchim, for example, was written for an epidemic of doubters. And although the questions of today may have evolved since those, the same Torah that had answers for that generation has answers for this generation too.

Those who seek truthfully will be able to find, although it may be a long process that admittedly not everyone has the energy or motivation for.

leah233

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 10:13 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

(1)DH is slowly feeling less spiritually connected. After YK today he asked me- what is the pojnt of it all. (2)Does Hashem really care about work being done on YK.(3) I sdaid, well if he worked on YK then Hashem would have found a way for him not to work- like the computer breaking. (4)He asks me what is the point of it all- Hashem is omnipotent, omniscient omnieverything- what does he need our tefillot for.. are we his little puppets, dolls that he put in this world with rules to follow and then what happens-(5) you die and then your soul floats around until techias hamasim and if you are not resurrected, then you don't know the difference and if you are you serve Hashem- why does Hashem need any of that....

(1)Which came first his feelings or his questions? Which is influencing the other? You need to know before you can direct him to an answer

(2) Yes but not in the way he is imagining. No, you won't cause damage to Hashem if you work on Yom Kippur. Yes , you will hurt yourself and that is what Hashem doesn't want

(3)People have bechira so the computer won't break if someone works on it on Yom Kippur

(4)Hashem doesn't need anything from us. We need his schar and to avoid his onesh

(5)For a person with such questions he seems amazingly confident in his knowledge about what happens to people after they die. I'm very unconvinced his assumptions about the way the afterlife works are100% accurate and correct. Why is he?

Last edited by leah233 on Thu, Oct 10 2019, 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total

seeker

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 10:17 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

I'm interested in your perspective because you seem like a thinking person. I'm curious why you think it's "healthy and normal" to doubt religion? I disagree with you on this.

Healthy, normal brains want things to make sense. Chovos Halevavos, for one (among many, others I can't list offhand) considers rational understanding to be a REQUIRED part of Judaism. If one was not provided with this understanding in their formal education, then asking these questions later on is a normal, healthy development. Not necessarily will it happen to everyone, and others are not abnormal, but someone who is asking these questions and having these doubts should not be made to think there is anything unhealthy about it.