DH asks,Does G-d really care

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:19 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

The question itself can't be answered because it's not a standalone question.

We know Hashem cares because He says He cares.

Why?
Hashem doesn't choose to explain that question fully.

Do you believe that Hashem exists?
That Hashem is telling the truth when He says He wants something?
That Hashem notices what we do?
That Hashem is creating the world continuously Yesh Me'Ayin?
That Hashem cares about every minute detail of the world?

Do you understand that Hashem created the world in a way that a mitzvah has a global effect?
Do you know about the sparks of Kedusha trapped in the world, that are released through your actions?
Do you feel that your mitzvos affect others and the world at large?

Do you believe that the Torah's words are true?
Do you believe that the Chachomim are sharing Torah wisdom passed down from the time of Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai?

It's a general Emunah question.

But in reality, the person asking is generally NOT asking an Emunah question at all.

It might be, "Why do I feel so depressed and unfulfilled?"
"Why do I have to feel guilted into doing these boring mitzvos?"
"Why can't I be doing X like I really want to do?"

Emunah questions are generally not answered on one foot.
Worldviews are usually not radically changed in .5 seconds.

Emotional questions even more so.

The only short answer that can be given is, "Many people have struggled with these feelings and doubts over the 3000+ years since Matan Torah. I don't have the answers for you, but if we look I'm sure we will find them."

That’s a lot of beliefs that we have accept cold turkey. The problem is that not all doubts are easily resolved.

amother

Blue

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:36 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

The other question you raise is about determinism.

If Hashem already decided what is going to be, why bother?
If Hashem knows better than I, why should I ask to change things?
If Hashem runs the world, do I need to interfere?

...And again, the answer is yes...

Hashem WANTS us to.
Hashem ASKS us to.
Hashem desires our acknowledgement that He is in charge, and that Hashem has the power to CHANGE things.

That's very interesting that you bring this up, because the style of tefilah has changed greatly. There's a lot of debate amongst the earlier sages (all the way to the rishonim) about "personal prayer", and whether it's answered or should even occur. I'm not talking about praying for rain or things to benefit the klal, but about personal requests.

I think about this all the time.

imorethanamother

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:43 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

I'm interested in your perspective because you seem like a thinking person. I'm curious why you think it's "healthy and normal" to doubt religion? I disagree with you on this. I think the system does everything possible to ensure we don't question religion. This is mainly done by not acknowledging anything but our beliefs. This is why the op responded to her dh that had he worked on yk, his computer would have broken. This is a simplistic, naive comment that demonstrates that the op is a million miles away from questioning anything. In a way, this is a good place to be.
This actually becomes problematic when one starts to question things as an adult. I can ask my rav who doesn't delve into ahiestic arguments, so he's not really in position to argue with what they say. Furthermore as religious people we MUST believe that everything in the Torah is true. So if something doesn't seem to make sense we never conclude it isn't true, we just twist it into a pretzel and kvetch an answer. Or we say that even though we don't understand, it's true anyway. This is hardly logical. Ultimately, my point is that very often the questions are far better than the answers and once a person goes down this road, they will never be satisfied.

Then find a different Rav. I can recommend you some. There are plenty out there.

I had an amazing childhood, and had lots of people who weren't scared to answer questions. There are also books that delve into these questions and problems - lots of them. But despite me growing up in the BY system, I had many teachers who were fine with questioning things.

And yes, it is healthy and normal. Otherwise we would live in a cult.

amother

Violet

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:57 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Which books/sources do you find truly satisfying to your intellect?

(Especially in dealing with the purpose of suffering- but in answering all questions. Looking for more resources on emunah that are not flighty.)

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:58 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

It's very human to doubt religion.
I'm sorry, but many people aren't okay with the whole "Well I said it so it's true, so close your eyes and just believe".

When I was 10 I asked my teacher; if the christians think they are right, the muslims think they are right, and we think we are right...well who is really right? Can you prove who is correct? Are you telling me the billion christians out there; ALL of them are stupid idiots who don't think?

How do we know Hashem wrote the Torah?
How do we know G-d exists?
How do we know the Torah hasn't changed since G-d wrote it? Or it was edited by man?

We talked about these thing in my school, and I think every school should. These things have answers you know. And most people think a bit and ask themselves things like this.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:02 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Aish, kiruv rabbi's and their sites.
I highly suggest anyone in Israel to do Aish's crash course Discovery that is meant for secular Jews who walk in.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:03 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

I am wondering where you heard of such a thing.

Although we generally stick to the formulaic prayers instituted by the Anshei Kneses Hagedolah, the main mitzvah of Tefillah IS that when we have needs, we should ask Hashem. This does not have to take place during the three formal tefillos.

There is a designated place for our own tefillos in Shemoneh Esrei, in the bracha of Shomeiah Tefillah.

And, of course, there are techinos for those who wish for words to verbalize a specific request, and Dovid Hamelech's Sefer Tehillim which expresses many needs.

amother

Violet

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:03 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

In my school, we were given cookie-cutter answers to these questions, and any further questioning was considered being a troublemaker.

The question about the Muslims and Christians is a compelling one. The classic answer given by the Kuzari is about the revelation story in front of millions vs. the "single prophet" revelation story. That answer used to be enough for me, until I saw my mother reading a book about how the Kuzari is false.

I don't believe the Kuzari is false, but for the sake of "da ma shetashiv l'apikorus," it's become more necessary for me to delve into these questions and confirm for myself that Yiddishkeit is the right way. My family and I are in a vulnerable position due to my mother's ideological war on frumkeit, and sometimes outright missionizing towards atheism.

SixOfWands

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:07 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My own made up BY mentality-The way I perceive the world works... I did not say it made sense- hence the asking of advice here. : )

Not only does it not make sense, its demonstrably false. I know plenty of Jews who work on Yom Kippur without them -- or their computers -- being struck by lightening.

What happens when we convince ourselves, or our children, that there is direct and immediate punishment for sins, and then they (we) see that its just not true. Secular, off the derech, cousin Moshe has a lovely wife and 3 bright, successful kids; lives in a lovely house, and travels to exotic locales twice a year. All the while enjoying BLTs.

amother

Violet

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:10 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Oh, and many people do practice Yiddishkeit in a cult-like manner.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:12 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

That’s a lot of beliefs that we have accept cold turkey. The problem is that not all doubts are easily resolved.

Who says we need to accept these things cold turkey?

But many discussions about Tefillah, for example, will presuppose some agreement about these principles. All it changes is how far-ranging any potential answers need to be.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:18 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

From what I understand, Aish's whole program is based on the "Torah Codes," which are about as valuable to me as some "la la" fake Judaism. That's not emunah.

It's not just the Torah codes, and I different things speak to different people.
I don't think ANYONE can give 100 percent proof.
I really like Rabbi Zeldman and Rabbi Kelman classes on these topics.
Rabbi Kelman can actually trace his roots all the way back to Matan Torah.
I've heard them only in person so Idk what's online..

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:20 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Idk, it's little things that add up.
It's not JUST the revelation in front of millions.
We also made the claim first, every other major religion believes our Torah was first and existed first and the events are true.

amother

Violet

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:21 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

The problem I have is that the Torah Codes draw people in with false claims. It's so inauthentic and leads to so many questions later.

I can check out Rabbi Zeldman and Rabbi Keleman.

imorethanamother

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:54 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Emunah about suffering? It depends where you are in your emotional stages. Suffering is by nature an emotional conundrum, so intellectual sources are likely to leave you feeling hurt and a bit flat. At an acute time in my life, my Rav recommended "Making Sense of Suffering", which you can find on Amazon. It's a very short little book, and I remember not feeling all that relieved after reading it, but I can't remember why. (I've since lent out the book, so I can't flip through it)

I also read - IN SMALL DOSES (not for one sitting) - Garden of Emunah, which helped a bit.

The best classic source are things like the Rambam. Find everything you can get your hands on and read it.

Again, nothing in book form will make you read it and go, "OH! Aha! Now I understand why my child is sick!" It just won't. I can tell you that constant prayer and "battle" with God and engaging with Him and seeing a Rav periodically to give you brachos and sympathy is what helped with me accepting a bad situation over time, and even realizing that it was a necessary component in my life. I've changed, and I like the changes. But me telling you things like, "It's good for you! You'll see!" will just make you hate the messenger.

In other words, no outside source can help you understand why bad things happen to good people. The only place it comes from is deep inside, and it's a slow realization over time, if you're lucky. Most of us aren't. But all of us suffer in some way. Death gets all of us in the end, after all.

amother

Blue

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:00 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I don't want to get into this. I came across it in a classic text, and asked my Rav about it. He agreed that the Tannaim didn't daven the way we daven today, like Hashem is our fairy godmother, and that bad things in our lives are to be wished away. They believed that Hashem knew best, so there was no reason to daven about it. But he also said that "Kamayim, haPanim el Panim", that sometimes a generation changes with its relationship to Hashem, and Hashem "changes" His approach to that generation like a mirror. It's all very light on details.

Tehillim - "expresses many needs". What? It says praise for Hashem, Dovid does a lot of Viduy, and there are general prayers like, "Please hear me, please answer me when I call" in terms of saving his own life from his enemies.