If you started to wear pants...

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:30 pm

I have the same q as Mommyg8 that no one answered: Out of pure curiosity, is there any MO rabbi who allows tight pants?

If not, then there’s really no argument here. Ultra orthodox rabbis don’t allow tight pants OR tight skirts. Do any MO rabbis allow either?

amother

Brown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:37 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

I'm Chassidish. I wear pants to work all the time. It has made me a better Jewish woman overall and helped me improve my tznius elsewhere as an outlet. My kids don't know, nor does DH. Obviously my community does not know. I've been doing this for several years.

How is it possible that nobody knows ?! Not a single person you know from the community ever sees you at work ? Your husband doesnt ? I dont believe this .

DrMom

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:34 am

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Not that I know of, unless worn under a skirt or long tunic.

tichellady

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:35 am

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

For the most part, Modern orthodox jews aren’t obsessed with what women wear the way some other groups are. I don’t think any modern orthodox would say that tight pants are recommended or modest but they also wouldn’t consider a woman’s clothing choice her defining characteristic or the measure of her integrity, trustworthiness etc

Mevater

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:40 am

I havent read the entire thread so Im not sure if anyone posted this Shiur.

Im 15 minutes into this 20 minute Shiur, of a YU Rov , Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz, and it sounds to me, that wearing pants is questionable, at best, Halacha-wise, and most sources this Rov quoted, dont approve of women wearing pants.

Rabbi Lebowitz has served as the מרא דאתרא of Beis Haknesses of North Woodmere since its founding in 2004. As of Fall 2016, Rabbi Lebowitz serves as a Rebbe at Lander College for Men (Beis Medrash L'Talmud). Prior to joining Lander College, Rabbi Lebowitz was a Rebbe at DRS Yeshiva High School from 1999 to 2016.

Rabbi Lebowitz is an alumnus of Yeshivat Kerem B'Yavnes, Yeshiva University and its affiliated Rabbi Issac Elchonon Theological Seminary.

https://www.yutorah.org/lectur.....ants/

Last edited by Mevater on Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total

Mevater

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:55 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

I can picture that.

DrMom

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 2:25 am

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Out of curiosity, are there any Yeshivish/Chssidish rabbis who permit form-fitting pencil skirts, stripper heels, and long flowy wigs?

I'm just curious because it seems to me that this look is far more prevalent in those communities than pants-wearing (let alone tight pants-wearing) in MO communities.

essie14

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 3:41 am

DrMom wrote:

I want to know if the Yeshivish/Chassidish women who wear these clothing items ask their LOR and why everyone else is obsessed with MO women asking their LOR about clothing. I have never heard of asking a rabbi about clothing. I think most Orthodox women can make their own decisions about tzniut. My rabbi would never answer a question about sheitel length.

amother

Olive

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:02 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

How do you cover your hair? Shpitzel/double covering or just a regular sheitel/scarves/snood? Just how far is work from home that you keep it a secret? No one at work lives around you?

I wear a front with a hat or a tichel on Shabbos. At work I wear a lace front shaitel. I do not drive. Work is about 30 minutes away, but no one has ever seen me and would not cross paths. If I had to choose between pants or a skirt I'd obviously choose the skirt because I value my Chassidish lifestyle.

amother

Olive

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:08 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

How is it possible that nobody knows ?! Not a single person you know from the community ever sees you at work ? Your husband doesnt ? I dont believe this .

No, no one ever sees me outside of work. Most people would have a hard time with that, but trust me. It would go against everything I believe because being very temimsdig is also a huge part of who I am to my neighbors. And I've become even more tzniusdig over the years BH. People can live like that it just takes a certain personality and to the amother who said this is horrible for Shalom Bayis. I can say one thing, dh and I dont argue, don't disrespect one another, dont hurt each other, and seriously have an amazing marriage. I'm not going to risk my marriage and my kids, my life, and who I am over something stupid like this and that will never impact him.

amother

Olive

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:09 am

DrMom wrote:

Normal yeshivish and certainly Chassidish women dont wear these looks. A Chassidish woman who dresses like that would be considered a complete outcast and bummy.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:27 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Not insulting anyone, especially since I never heard of him.
A respected Rabbi won’t allow pants.
You can either ask him what he meant, what was the context of this ruling, or if he’s not here anymore you might want to ask Rav Kaminetsky Shlita about it.
I did hear about Rabbi Kaminetsky. He’s a very highly respected Rabbi.
Ask him!

And here in lies the problem. Just because YOU never heard of a certain rav does NOT mean that he is not a big chashuv rav. You can agree with that, no?

And not everyone holds from every rav. I have no idea who rav kaminetsky is. Seriously.
Here are some links so you can educate yourself on who Rav Henkin is. He is a big talmid chasham and very chashuv.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Henkin
http://www.nishmat.net/nishmat-leadership/56/

amother

Tangerine

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:28 am

Just curious olive, do you dress in pants at home before you leave on your commute? Because then I guarantee people have seen you.
Or do bring clothes to change at work? And then change before leaving? Where do you keep all your stuff? Seems like a lot of work and planning to stay so secretive. Is it really worth it?

amother

Brunette

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:36 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

I'm ultra orthodox and I'm definitely not like that. Though I understand were your comment is coming from, seeing how some try to force their point of view on others. And I'm sorry for that

Well that's exactly what I was taught in sem. I'm a BT and I was brainwashed from the very beginning. Only learners are good men, if a man wants to work there's something wrong with him. Nonreligious people can't be happy because their life isn't fulfilling, they can't have happy marriages either. Non frum men only want s-ex and never have feelings towards a woman etc etc
Only the ultra orthodox get it right and everyone else is wrong, uneducated etc.
So sick of it. I've never met an ultra orthodox person that said: I do my thing but I respect it if you do it differently. It starts with I can see your knees and ends with so why doesn't your husband learn daily.
You'll never hear me say: why doesn't your husband work or why don't you think a decent secular education for your kids is important. But maybe that's because I'm not ultra anything.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:39 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Does it need to be common and accepted everyone?
Pants is DEFINITELY still a beged ish in Arab countries. You can get stoned or killed.
In Los Angeles and in some places in the USA one could argue it's common and accepted for men and women to wear whatever the heck they want. Makeup, pants, unicorn onesies.
It all goes.

Why would we care what arabs think? They also think it's okay to blow their kids up and stab Jews in the back for no reason. You really wanna take them as an example?

southernbubby

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:42 am

DrMom wrote:

Pants are more modest than the clothes and accessories that you mentioned. I think that some rabbonim, including Rabbi Henkin, want to include as many people as possible to be considered observant so they find room in halacha so that they are not considered to be sinners.
The end result of the halacha of tznius is to have women who are modest and can still function in society as opposed to wearing burkas. I do think that the MO woman in a modest pants outfit is preferable to a Hot Chani but luckily there is a large middle ground of acceptable choices.
Because I am involved with Chabad, and one son runs a Chabad house, all Jews are accepted as long as they are reasonably dressed (there was a guy who came bare chested and either Chabad rounded up a tee shirt or he was asked to go home and get one). Women commonly attend wearing pants.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:49 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

For sure and No problem.
I agree you’re all orthodox and all amazing. All Jewish women are wonderful. Modern Orthodox. Orthodox. Ultra orthodox. All orthodox.
But don’t force any Rabbis rulings over each other. Let Modern listen to Modern. Ultra to Ultra etc etc. That’s respect.
It’s completely understandable to me that some more stringent people than me would not want to eat in my kitchen.
I never thought to get insulted about that. They just need to take care of their own food Smile

)
I have another commitment tonight,
Sorry if anything offended anyone, that was not my intent at all!
Good luck and good night!

Exactly, so just like you mentioned a rav kaminetsky earlier when you said you had no idea who rav henkin was, same thing. Not everyone holds by him either. He is, I assume, a charedi rav in your community.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 7:54 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Saddle brown here.
Secondly: I don’t understand all the Hype. You proudly call yourselves Modern Orthodox, NOT orthodox. And you realize that there’s a big difference between those two. All I said is, that a regular local orthodox Rabbi wouldn’t allow pants. Please be HONEST. Do you think a LOR would? Who exactly are you trying to fool?

Saddle brown, please educate yourself. A n orthodox jew is orthodox, no matter if they are modern, ultra or just plain orthodox. A modern ORTHODOX jew is just that. She is ORTHODOX and lives in the modern world with all that entails and includes.
Also, the words LOR, local orthodox rav, literally just means that, a rav that is local to you. So for you, a LOR would not pasken that pants are ok. But you have absolutely no idea if other LORs might say its fine.