If you started to wear pants...

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:18 pm

iyar wrote:

Why not?
We have all kinds of Halachic obligations. Some - like TH - I can’t tell if you’re careful with, and that’s the way it’s meant to be. Some - like tznius or Shabbos - you show people in public whether or not you’re observant. If you’re not, I’m not passing judgement, I’m not thinking poorly of you, but I might not be comfortable eating a home cooked meal at your house since we seem to have different priorities.

Exactly I agree with you.
Shabbos is an ois , a sign.
Ois hi l’olam.

amother

Mint

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:43 pm

I don't wear pants but I find you all to be so close minded and judgmental.

You have not answered her question at all, but have not so nicely told her that she is (or would be) going to gehenom in a hand basket.

It's a good thing we are judged on dress and not on respect for others, middot, ahavat Yisrael, or any of the like or you would all be the ones going there instead of her.

amother

Wine

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:45 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Yes. It’s against halacha.
Tzniut is halacha.
Skirts are not just a minhag or a chumra.

I live in a modern orthodox community where maybe 25% or more of the women wear pants. Personally, I'm not modern. I don't wear pants at all. (In fact, I'm in a sheitel and stockings). I assumed that they wear pants because their MO rabbi holds you can wear pants and still be tznius. You're saying that this is not the case? That these women just decided on their own they are wearing pants and there is no orthodox rabbi allowing it? Can someone who is actually MO and wearing pants verify this please?

My4Jewels

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:47 pm

This is the a most surprising thread for me to read.

It would never ever occur to me to apply kashrut laws to someone wearing pants. I would never judge someone for wearing something that I personally would not wear nor would I ever judge them on their kashrut based on what they wear. So when you guys hear someone speaking Loshon hara you also can’t eat in their house cause it’s against Halacha. Oh wait someone who lies or gets jealous totally against Halacha there so those houses are out too.

What about someone who smokes I mean after all according to Halacha we need to take care of our bodies and if we smoke then it’s against Halacha so no eating in smokers houses.

Last one.. you see someone not being so respectful to their parents well that’s against Halacha too so again it’s a no for eating in those houses.

There are so many ways in which many many people don’t follow Halacha you would be home always and forever by your own logic

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:48 pm

itsmeima wrote:

Example? What do you have in mind...

Are you worried that her dessert isn’t PY, her meat isn't your hechsher, or that she accidentally made chicken soup in a dairy pot and her Rav said it's okay?

Don't make light of hechsherim.

There are many, many hechsherim out there that are not reliable. You can't just eat anything with a kosher symbol; you have to know what it represents.

I have a wonderful friend who is MO. She doesn't wear pants but does wear short sleeves, short skirts, low-cut tops, etc. She'll eat anything she finds at Trader Joe's or Kroger's, but I won't. So yeah, I would have a hard time eating at her house.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:48 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

I think this is also harsh.

I think the other posters could have phrased it differently.
They could have said, "I know you hold differently than I do in certain halachos, so I'm not comfortable eating in your home because I'm not sure if all my stringencies would be accommodated. I don't want to bother you with extra expenses or effort on my behalf. I hope you can understand."

itsmeima

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:48 pm

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

Bugs in the produce, mostly.
But also that they may not be as careful with sheilos that come up. Or they may eat a borderline hechsher that I don't eat.

I hear you!

In general, this is an issue eating out.

My mother would only eat one brand of pre-checked lettuce so when she comes over she would not eat my salad (the few times I forgot to buy her brand).

My brother won't eat by me since most of my ingredients are OU.

My Rav believes preheating the oven is enough to consider my challah/dessert pareve, my sister’s Rav doesn't.

Again, I don't see how you can judge someone's kashrus by their pants!

allthingsblue

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:52 pm

itsmeima wrote:

I would assume that the same Rav who allows women to wear pants also allows preheating the oven to make a challah/dessert pareve, or allows certain brands of lettuce. And these are not things I hold, so I can't really eat in your home. I think that's a fair assumption.
Of course if you're my relative or good friend and I've seen your kitchen, I might have a better idea, and I might be more willing to eat in your home. Especially if you signal to me that you understand my stringencies and want to accommodate me.

itsmeima

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:59 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Exactly! Yet, if you'd be my neighbor and I’d invite you for a meal, you wouldn’t think twice, because we're Chassidish (and dress that way!).

Our Rav is Belz.

Assuming people’s kashrus standards by their pants is pathetic.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:09 pm

My4Jewels wrote:

It makes a lot of sence what you are saying except that if someone talks loshon Hora and is disrespectful they know it's wrong what they are doing, and it's not as if they hold that this is halacha and we have different halacha. When a person has a completely different halacha than you the same can be for kashrus.

iyar

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:26 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

Nobody said anything about gehenom. Please.

As a child I played with a little girl knowing I couldn’t eat at her house or share her snacks. Her mother knew too and was respectful of us without taking offense. On the flip side I had someone tell me her child couldn’t eat anything I had to offer on Pesach as they followed certain chumros. Chumros mind you, not halacha. No one suggested I was on my way to gehenom, and I didn’t ask the child’s mother if she speaks lashon hara or where she’s holding in her Ahavat Yisrael.

We have a long history of being careful what we eat. Let’s not get carried away and find reasons to feel offended.

amother

Oak

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:53 am

My4Jewels wrote:

It's very simple - nowadays Tznius has overtaken all halachas. It's the one thing that makes it breaks it. Schools / shuls / communities / shidduchim / playmates / friendships - all place tznius as the conditional acceptance.

I'm not even going to talk about the judgments reserved by those who deem others to be less tznius - as clearly illustrated in this thread. But really - ?? Just because I may hold differently in one area, doesn't mean I have any disregard for any halachos in any area. That's just an extension people place onto the circumstances to make them feel better about their viewpoint on tznius. - I was taught that wearing stockings is absolute halacha, and I know that to be the frummest and holiest way. So people that hold differently is just because they don't take halachos as seriously as we do. So extending off that, it must be that you don't take kashrus as seriously either and so on....

In actuality, I've experienced the opposite. People whose lives don't revolve around externals continuously, have time to focus and place emphasis on other equally or more so important halachos, especially such as Bein Adam L'chavera.

itsmeima

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:55 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If you grew up skirts only and started to wear pants as an adult (after marriage):
How did you grow up (hashkafically)?
How did you come to that decision?
Did your husband have an opinion/reaction?
Did you have to deal with reactions/judgment from others?

I have a position in our community where I could never get away with making the change, regardless of what the actual halacha is (or how some women’s pants are inarguably more modest than skintight pencil skirts), but a girl can dream...

Op, I’m sorry I took over your thread!

amother

Oak

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:59 am

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

I don't have any names or sources, but I once discussed this with someone who does wear pants. She told me that according to her Rabbi, pants created specifically for women (not men's clothing), and don't cling to the body are in line with halacha. We now live in a generation where pants are no longer reserved for men and women almost exclusively wear them across the board - universally. So 'bigdei ish" for pants is no longer relevant. And many styles of pants are more tzniusdig than skirts.

WhatFor

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:17 am

The way some posters are phrasing things are quite rude. Just because someone eats a hechsher you don't doesn't mean they're lax in their kashrut. Maybe they've consulted with their Rav and determined that it is kosher. Granted you don't have to hold that way or eat at their house, but to say that they're being careless is wrong and ignorant.

You think someone who eats gebrokts or kitniyot is careless about kashrut? I hope not. It's perfectly acceptable to hold differently. Of course you want to be careful before you go to someone that you can keep whatever you hold when eating at their house. No need to make it about them being "careless" just because they don't hold that owning a specific lamp to check for bugs is halacha msinai.

That's why I don't get the connection between wearing pants and kashrut. Either they keep your kashrut standards (or can accommodate them) or they can't. Nothing to do with what they wear.

When it comes to whether I can trust someone, I'm more concerned about issues involving integrity and honesty than whether they hold they can wear a certain item.