If you started to wear pants...

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:00 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

I don't have any names or sources, but I once discussed this with someone who does wear pants. She told me that according to her Rabbi, pants created specifically for women (not men's clothing), and don't cling to the body are in line with halacha. We now live in a generation where pants are no longer reserved for men and women almost exclusively wear them across the board - universally. So 'bigdei ish" for pants is no longer relevant. And many styles of pants are more tzniusdig than skirts.

Wrong. Pants are assur.
I didn’t read every single post but I’m getting the gist of the current here.
And I don’t agree.
And Who says that if you dress untznius then your integrity is better? That you are nicer to people? That you are more respectful? The tzniut people I know are very nice upstanding caring people.
And bashing people who respectfully explain why they wouldn’t trust you in matters of Halacha if you wear pants, on an orthodox site isn’t nice or respectful.
Let’s make something clear:
Wearing pants doesn’t make you have more ahavat yisrael.
Where does that baloney even come from??
I love every Jew. I wear a skirt.
If you wear pants you don’t talk lashon hara?
No one is allowed to talk lashon hara!

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:11 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

I don't wear pants but I find you all to be so close minded and judgmental.

You have not answered her question at all, but have not so nicely told her that she is (or would be) going to gehenom in a hand basket.

It's a good thing we are judged on dress and not on respect for others, middot, ahavat Yisrael, or any of the like or you would all be the ones going there instead of her.

Who said she’s going to gehenom?
Everyone is judged after 120, about keeping the whole Torah and following holy Rabbis who pasken according to the Torah.
That includes, tzniut, middot, Bain Adam laMakom, Bain Adam l’chavero, Shabbat, kashrut... all 613 of them.
Not just dressing.
And not just middot.
And I’m not the judge so no need to explain to me.
I’m positive that G-d loves every Jew, even those who wear pants. I have no doubt about that.
But according to LOR (which the Torah says one should have) pants are not tznius and not allowed for women in places where they can be seen by other men.
I still love you, just because you’re my sister.

DrMom

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:14 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

Quote:

I don't know. Who said that? Nobody on this thread.

If anything, posters here would claim that wearing pants is completely uncorrelated with the behaviors you mentioned. I tend to agree.

And many poskim say that pants are not assur. Are you saying that these poskim are wrong? What are your qualifications for overturning their rulings?

Yemenite women have been wearing pants with tunics over them for centuries. Please explain to me why this is assur, and why this is less tznua than a pencil skirt over form-fitting stockings.

Here in Israel there are many different styles of women's pants that are frequently worn in the dati leumi community. Baggy styles that are not at all form-fitting and good fr active hiking, etc., flowing palazzo pants worn under tunics that are superior to simple skirts when walking in windy areas such as the beach.

Perhaps if you are exposed to other Orthodox hashkfot and communities you will see that things are not always as black-and-white and you thought.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:23 am

DrMom wrote:

I have to go to work but will try to get back here when I get a chance.
I’m not a Rabbi and I’m not paskening.
Regular Local Orthodox Rabbis are definitely against pants, and so are our gedolim.
So if a Yemenite Rabbi said it’s ok and the Yemenite woman did nothing wrong by trusting him, that’s what she will answer to G-d.
The Rabbis I trust don’t say it’s ok.
Have a wonderful day, regardless of what you’re wearing!

DrMom

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:40 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

So, by your definition, all "regular" rabbis, and "the rabbis you trust" do not permit pants.

Therefore, even if somebody show you that there are Orthodox rabbis who permit pants, you will simply say they are "irregular" or "untrustworthy."

So why even ask for this information? Just say, "My community does not permit pants, and I am going to apply my community's standards to all Jews everywhere, because my community is CORRECT. Anyone who does anything different from what my community does is WRONG."

groisamomma

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:42 am

Just like regarding tznius I don't go according to the rabbi that says pants are okay, I wouldn't go by the same rabbi for kashrus or other halachos. In life we have the right to manipulate our own choices, but not the choices of others, and we certainly don't have to answer to others. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt that I won't eat at your house, but I still won't eat something just because your rabbi said so and I might be offended. I disagree with your choice to wear pants, but I'm not forcing you to change your standards because *my* sensitivities are offended. On the same vein, please don't ask me to change my standards.

Once again, it's interesting to note on this board that *my* lack of bein adam lachveiro is invoked in favor of *your* halacha when it fits your agenda but *your* lack of respecting my choice of where to eat doesn't deserve that same bein lachveiro.

(For the record, I would never remain friends with a person that disrespects me enough to cry victim in order to manipulate my choices. To me (again, to me, maybe not you) that shows an enormous lack of bein adam lachveiro.

allthingsblue

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:48 am

itsmeima wrote:

Exactly! Yet, if you'd be my neighbor and I’d invite you for a meal, you wouldn’t think twice, because we're Chassidish (and dress that way!).

Our Rav is Belz.

Assuming people’s kashrus standards by their pants is pathetic.

My husband and I only eat at homes of people whom we know and trust. We don't eat at a chassidish home just because the husband wears a streimel and the wife a turban.

We eat at places where the woman doesn't cover hair and wears pants, because they told us they want to accommodate our stringencies.

Saddlebrown, you can just say "wrong." It is possible some rabbis hold that way. You can say "I don't hold that way." But you can't make a blanket statement and say "wrong."

amother

Brunette

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:50 am

iyar wrote:

Why not?
We have all kinds of Halachic obligations. Some - like TH - I can’t tell if you’re careful with, and that’s the way it’s meant to be. Some - like tznius or Shabbos - you show people in public whether or not you’re observant. If you’re not, I’m not passing judgement, I’m not thinking poorly of you, but I might not be comfortable eating a home cooked meal at your house since we seem to have different priorities.

So what if a person dresses super tznius , not even tight, no long shaitel etc but talks LH all day? Will you eat their food? Because you know they're openly disregarding that one shouldn't talk LH.
But you do eat their food because loads of frum people speak LH.

I don't dress tznius if you go according to the ultra orthodox standard. But I would NEVER ever compromise someone's kashrus standards because that goes against my belief of respecting other people and valueing their wishes.

amother

Brunette

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:53 am

DrMom wrote:

Well that's exactly what ultra orthodox Judaism is about. They are right and everyone else is wrong. And it makes sense to say that because there is no other way to make people comply with the chumrahs.

allthingsblue

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:53 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

No I would not eat such a person's food.

shoshanim999

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:56 am

My4Jewels wrote:

This is the a most surprising thread for me to read.

It would never ever occur to me to apply kashrut laws to someone wearing pants. I would never judge someone for wearing something that I personally would not wear nor would I ever judge them on their kashrut based on what they wear. So when you guys hear someone speaking Loshon hara you also can’t eat in their house cause it’s against Halacha. Oh wait someone who lies or gets jealous totally against Halacha there so those houses are out too.

What about someone who smokes I mean after all according to Halacha we need to take care of our bodies and if we smoke then it’s against Halacha so no eating in smokers houses.

Last one.. you see someone not being so respectful to their parents well that’s against Halacha too so again it’s a no for eating in those houses.

There are so many ways in which many many people don’t follow Halacha you would be home always and forever by your own logic

The difference is that in the examples you gave, the people violating halacha would agree they are violating halacha. If you go to someone who constantly disrespects their parents, they would either disagree that they're being disrespectful, or they'd say they realize it, know it's wrong, but occasionally lose themselves. Wearing pants is a hashkafa. The women who wear pants make no apologies for it and don't feel their doing anything wrong. This is very different than for example, someone who spoke LH.

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:56 am

Just wanted to show you how this would work respectfully in real life.
My aunts and cousins are MO and we are chassidish, by all events that we go to them they are extremely gracious and tell us which foods we can eat and we trust them enough to know that they will not tell us something that is not to our standards. Yet, one of them married a guy who gets offended, guess what, she is the only one that we will not eat by since we know he is offended by our standards and we cannot trust him to be honest since he does not respect us and our standards.
Whenever they come to our Simchas we have no issue with the men coming in and mingling or sitting on a table with their wives- it is important to them for the night out (they usually do not do it the entire time by here and there they come in to shmooze and they know we are happy for them to do it cuz it is important to them.
My friend is MO and when she travels she always calls me to do her research of where and what she can eat when she is on vacation, (cuz she does not have patience to do the research) she knows that I will find out for her on HER level and I do not enforce my level on her, by the same token she tries to dress appropriately when she comes to my house but she knows that I really don't care since she really always dresses okay, but she would not come with pants to my house or wear them in her home when my husband and bochurim are around.
We go out together, invite each other over, respect and love each other, trust each other with everything cuz it is mutually respectful and there are real open lines of communication. We also respect each others lifestyles and milestones even if they are foreign to our lifestyles.

allthingsblue

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:11 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

This, all the way.

amother

Lawngreen

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:13 am

I wear pants with a long tunic type top.

I think I am 10000% times more modest than many women with tight skirts, heels and nylons. No comparison.

Anyway, you do you and I do me. I dont get offended by anyone's culinary standards, whether kashrut or vegan or whatever. I happily bring over paper plates and packaged badatz for who ever needs. Most don't.

At my smachot, I order a table or two of badatz type food for my charedi relatives. Or I used to, until they insisted no need. They pick and choose what to eat, and seem to fill their plates.
When everyone respects everyone, all is well.

I did have a few years when I wore only skirts, and I lived in a closed RW community. I wanted to go back to pants then, but it would have been too difficult with social pressure, especially for my kids. Luckily I moved to a place where everything goes.
I now tell my adult kids, live in a heterogeneous place so if you ever want to change, you can.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:22 am

The MO women that I know that wear pants don't wear modest pants. They wear tight pants that no Rabbi would say is halachicly permitted.

I think that is the experience of the PP's who felt like someone who is so openly violating halacha cannot be trusted in the kitchen.

A personal story which will be the reason why this post will be anon:

When I first moved into a mixed neighborhood I wanted to be friends with everyone. I hit it off with one woman who didn't cover her hair and wears pants. She was so surprised that I was interested in being friends with her since my husband wears a black hat on shabbos.

Anyway, as I got to know her I realized it was very naive of me to assume that I could eat in her house. She told me point blank she doesn't believe in checking for bugs at all. I saw her picking veggies in her garden on shabbos! And she was insulted if other people second guessed her kashrus!

Well, after seeing these things I wouldn't eat in her house and that put a damper on our friendship. I truly regret any homemade food my kids ate from her.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:28 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

I live in Monsey, on a chereidi street. One neighbor politely approached me that my shells were too low at the back of my neck because shells stretch with use. She felt that I would like to know. I appreciate her honesty and her respectful approach and I fixed the necklines. I am one of a handful of female drivers in the area and one woman explained that driving was viewed in their community as becoming modern. There are various options for these women so that they are not stranded.
They are very nice and inclusive of me even though I am not part of their community. They are concerned, however, about keeping outside views from affecting their community. Why are they not entitled to that?

DrMom

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:33 am

southernbubby wrote:

Personally, I would find these little tips to be highly intrusive.

marina

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 9:16 am

Say you are severely allergic to peanuts. A friend invites you over and asserts that she will not have anything made with peanuts at the table and will ensure that everything is made with ingredients that come from a nut free facility.

What are the factors that help you decide whether to trust her and accept the invitation? Is it how knowledgeable she is about allergies? Is it about how much attention she pays to your explanation? Is it about your past history with her?

Do you even think about her tznius level and whether she wears pants?

Chances are you do not. Because tznius level is pretty much irrelevant to whether your friend will respect your views and ensure your comfort and safety.