If you started to wear pants...

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:28 am

Oh boy, this has surely taken a turn. Glad to know I won't have to cook for many of you!

FYI, not that it's anyone's business, I wear a sheitel and tights and don't wear pencil skirts b'shitta. But I have looked inside at the sources for tznius, and there's what to say for loose fitting pants with a tunic over the top. The issue is the outline of the upper leg. It's easily obscured with (some types of) skirts, but can be done with flowy pants or a legging + tunic combo as well. It's the ridiculous social conformity (as evidenced in this thread) that keeps (many) people from branching out to those styles because it's "pas nisht." Instead, we pride ourselves on how holy we are Rolling Eyes

I was just interested to hear from people who have actually made this decision/change for themselves, not a competition for Miss (Mrs.?) Chumrah-of-the-Year.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:30 am

DrMom wrote:

So, by your definition, all "regular" rabbis, and "the rabbis you trust" do not permit pants.

Therefore, even if somebody show you that there are Orthodox rabbis who permit pants, you will simply say they are "irregular" or "untrustworthy."

So why even ask for this information? Just say, "My community does not permit pants, and I am going to apply my community's standards to all Jews everywhere, because my community is CORRECT. Anyone who does anything different from what my community does is WRONG."

Exactly. I think good kosher Jews have a gut feeling of which Rabbis are trustworthy.
No, A trusted orthodox Rav will not advise you to wear pants. Sorry.
Yes, Only an irregular one.
I’m terribly sorry if it’s offending you. I don’t mean to be offensive, but to express my beliefs.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:33 am

allthingsblue wrote:

My husband and I only eat at homes of people whom we know and trust. We don't eat at a chassidish home just because the husband wears a streimel and the wife a turban.

We eat at places where the woman doesn't cover hair and wears pants, because they told us they want to accommodate our stringencies.

Saddlebrown, you can just say "wrong." It is possible some rabbis hold that way. You can say "I don't hold that way." But you can't make a blanket statement and say "wrong."

We wouldn’t eat by a home that follows “an irregular Rav” even if they respect our stringencies. Bec honestly, their pots and pans are not being bought new in honour of my visit. Maybe their “irregular rav” said it’s kosher even though the housekeeper mistakenly cooked the cholent with some butter? Not saying he did, but if he says pants are ok.. I can’t trust. If I dont trust that they use a “regular Rav” then I dont trust the kashrut enough to eat there.
I’m not saying they’re bad people, I might still ask them to safe guard my jewelry , and vote for them as city mayor, but we wouldn’t eat there.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:37 am

marina wrote:

Say you are severely allergic to peanuts. A friend invites you over and asserts that she will not have anything made with peanuts at the table and will ensure that everything is made with ingredients that come from a nut free facility.

What are the factors that help you decide whether to trust her and accept the invitation? Is it how knowledgeable she is about allergies? Is it about how much attention she pays to your explanation? Is it about your past history with her?

Do you even think about her tznius level and whether she wears pants?

Chances are you do not. Because tznius level is pretty much irrelevant to whether your friend will respect your views and ensure your comfort and safety.

One scenario is when you are eating in someone's home and another is where a community where a shul or day school has families with varying degrees of frumkeit and can't allow home made food.

PinkFridge

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:37 am

marina wrote:

But your friend won't be offended by your restrictions, nor will she feel that she is looked down on or her kashrus suspect for using peanuts. It's a bit dicey to ask someone you don't have much of a history with (e.g. someone who signs up for a meal train) if you're on the same page as far hashgachos, bug checking, and cholov Yisrael go.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:38 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I was just interested to hear from people who have actually made this decision/change for themselves, not a competition for Miss (Mrs.?) Chumrah-of-the-Year.

Nothing to do with Chumras or pas nisht.
Or pride in our holiness. Although I am proud to be a frum Jew.
It’s assur.
Ask any local orthodox Rabbi.
If your rabbi says it’s ok, he’s either not a Rabbi or not orthodox or not local!
(Yemenite isn’t local).

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:42 am

Having said all that, I just want to mention that a very pritzusdig looking girl came to rabanit Kanievsky for a Bracha and someone yelled at her “prutza!” And the rabbanit got very defensive for her and quickly hugged her and said “Dont listen to them!! Hashem loves you no matter how you dress!!!”
I’m still absolutely positive the Rabbanit would not eat in this girl’s house, but she connected with her and loved her and wouldn’t allow anyone to offend or embarrass her.

amother

Oak

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:43 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

This statement sums up your perspective perfectly.

"My version is the absolute truth - anyone who holds differently is a sinner."

To be perfectly honest with you - what's anti-Torah on this thread is your viewpoint, not much else.

amother

Oak

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:46 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Really? I feel quite sad for you if thats how you go around thinking about other people.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:53 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Well that's exactly what ultra orthodox Judaism is about. They are right and everyone else is wrong. And it makes sense to say that because there is no other way to make people comply with the chumrahs.

Wearing a skirt is halacha, not a chumra.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:58 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

And:
There may be a time that a LOR will say to someone that they should wear tznius pants, if he knows that for them it’s a chumra, like instead of shorts or tight pants.
But we’re not talking about that.
A regular LOR will not tell a regular Local orthodox girl that it’s ok to wear pants.

amother

Oak

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:59 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Wearing a skirt is halacha, not a chumra.

Dressing tznius'dig, not wearing bigdei ish and covering certain body parts is halacha. The rest are interpretations.

But relegating other people's psak as them going against halacha is violating other halachas.

amother

Oak

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:04 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

This is another fallacy. There are Rabbonim that believe pants are ok l'chatchila, being that they are no longer bidgei ish (and conform to tznius guidelines).

It seems that you have difficulty in accepting that other frum Jews out there have acceptable psaks and other interpretations that differ from yours. Why the rigidity? Will your beliefs and practice of yiddishkeit change if other people observe it in different manner?

keym

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:07 am

marina wrote:

Yes this. 100%.
We don't eat in a lot of people's houses. It's us, not personal. But after we get to know someone we often will decide to eat by specific people. Not based off what they wear. Not even based off the hashgachos they use. More about their attitude towards halacha, their attitude and relationship with their Rav, the likelihood of asking if they mess up, that kind of stuff.
Meeting someone with a long beard, a streimel, or seamed stockings does not make is more likely to eat by them as opposed to pants or uncovered hair.

And the allergy mashal is 100% on target. I have multiple kids with multiple food allergies, and I have learned that some people are really trustworthy and some are not and it has nothing to do with how they dress or look.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:15 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

But oak, I am a Lubavitcher and live in one of the most chereidi neighborhoods in America. I can accept that there are MO communities that hold differently but what would I gain by following the psakim of those rabbonim, unless I wanted to totally change my way of life? Their p'sakim are irrelevant to me and many MO are equally as critical of the religious choices made by me and my neighbors.

amother

Oak

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:20 am

southernbubby wrote:

No one is asking you to follow other rabbonim, I was referring to accepting that other Rabbonim hold differently. Once you accept that, you wouldn't be saying that pants are against halacha no matter what. You would be saying that we hold that pants are not in line with halacha, but understand that others may hold differently.

This applies to everyone and everything - across the religious spectrum. Acceptance of one another, and other's psakim. Don't judge and label people based on your particular community or personal beliefs. Shivim Panim L'Torah.

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:23 am

southernbubby wrote:

No one expects you to accept halachic rulings by someone who isn't your rabbi. At least I wouldn't.

What people here are asking is for others to respect that there are different halachic rulings. Its the difference between "we don't hold that way, and if your rabbis holds differently, he's not a real rabbi, you're not following halacha whatsoever, and I reasonably suspect that you're sneaking ham and cheese sandwiches on the side," and "we don't hold that way, we hold that's a violation of halacha, but we respect that your rabbi holds differently. Please understand that before I would be able to eat in your home, I'd need to understand how else our rabbis differ, so I can be comfortable."

[FTR, we hold that women's pants are fine, but I almost never wear them, mostly only driving to and from the gym.]

amother

Magenta

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:31 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Perfect example of no true Scotsman.

Op I made the switch, but also changed communities so it worked out fine. Anyone with intellectual honesty will admit that skirts are about the accepted uniform, not about actually looking more modest. To the average American, regular jeans and a t shirt are more modest than a fitted black skirt heels and a long flowy sheitel.

southernbubby

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:54 am

SixOfWands wrote:

But realize that in our schools, no one is going to use the "we hold" disclaimer that paves the way for another acceptable point of view. In our community, for someone who was educated to view wearing pants as imitating non -Jews, they would be labeled a sinner but then, Hot Chani wouldn't want to live in my neighborhood either.