A frum family needs two incomes?

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:41 pm

dorothy1 wrote:

Honestly I don’t think 150 is enough , especially since such a family wouldn’t get any programs .

They’ll make about 110 after taxes
90k after insurance (that’s not accounting for any private therapies which most families will need at one point )
5 kids - 50k after tuition
20k after mortgage
10k after car payments and car insurance

10 is definitely not enough for all other bills, clothing , food, camp expenses, and the millions of other things families need

It sounds absurd that 150k wouldn’t cut it but the Math is there

Looking at these numbers - my mortgage is lower but my tuition is higher. In any case, we're not making 150K!!!!

watergirl

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:42 pm

dorothy1 wrote:

If neither of you hAve flexibility , and both leave for work by 8, who waits with the kids by the school bus? Who is there when they come home ?
My daughters bus comes at 845. My precious job was 30 mins away starting at 9. There was no possible way for me to be on time. They were flexible, so I could stay late afterwards .
Who is with the kids when they’re sick or there is no school ?

Dorothy1, you are making so many assumptions. What school bus? There are no school buses in my city. Carpool is the name of the game. And if you do not have the ability to drive carpool, you pay a paid carpool driver. Everyone in my city has carpools - its literally the only way to get the kids to school unless they can walk. I have 3 kids and 4 carpools.

In my situation, my husband is the am carpool driver. He leaves the house, picks up the kids, and then davens that traffic does not make him late. Its a daily stress. He has to be at work at 8:30. If he is late, he is docked PTO. In the afternoons, my little one makes it home before me by about 15 minutes. I have no local family and he is too young to be at home alone. So, I do what other moms in my situation do - I begged the pm driver to bring my son to her house and I pick him up from there every day. My older boy comes home at 4:45 so thats not an issue for him, I am home already. Then I leave at 5:00 to pick up another child from school and I drive that carpool every pm - another mother in that carpool drives every am. That child is not picked up until the rest of us are out of the house but she is a teen already so its fine.

If a kid is sick, my husband and I take turns staying home with them and are docked PTO. And seeing as PTO is a set amount of time, there is no time left for personal days. And I dont work for a frum office, so I also have to take PTO for yontiv.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:43 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

Of course but I didn’t hear no choice.

It’s an unfair expectation in general that just b/c you can do something that others can too. It may be necessary, helpful and work for you but suicide for someone else.

Anyway, many of us bh do have a choice. I do have a choice to work part time and go into more debt every year - it's not a great choice, but it's a choice.

I'm trying to understand the numbers, and how it can work for me to work full time, if it's possible. I'm trying to understand the math, and also the logistics. So far I haven't really gotten anything. I didn't get anything before either, that's why I posted Smile

watergirl

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Wait till your kids are older. You'll see, the math will be correct. And she didn't even include saving for weddings, which is coming up on the horizon for us.

I DO have older kids. Some in HS, some out of HS, some still in elem. (includes step kids). That math is not correct for me. Not even close.

watergirl

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:46 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

You find a job that will allow you to come in for the day earlier than 9 so you can be home around 4. Or you find a job with normal start times but late evenings and have your kids who would beat you home go somewhere after school and pick them up on the way home. the logistics are possible. How old is your youngest?

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:47 pm

watergirl wrote:

I DO have older kids. Some in HS, some out of HS, some still in elem. (includes step kids). That math is not correct for me. Not even close.

I just looked at the numbers again. Which part of the math is wrong? Like I said, my mortgage is lower but everything else is correct (including tuition, which is actually more for me).

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:50 pm

watergirl wrote:

Hi, this is really serious, I really want to know.

Basically, by working full time we will iyh be able to make a little over 150K, which is what I think we need in order to live. I'm just trying to understand how much money I will come home with, after babysitting, cleaning help and taxes.

So how can I start earlier? I wish I could but my last kids bus comes around 9. I guess they can go to someone after school, but I asked around and I've already been warned that I'm going to make a lot of enemies by asking.

My youngest just started school.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:50 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Ok, to me going into debt is not a choice. It's what happens when I don't make other, better choices.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:52 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If you post your location maybe people can tell you what babysitting costs in your are. Taxes are harder as everyones family and calculations are different.

dorothy1

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:54 pm

watergirl wrote:

At my children’s school we cannot drop off until 9:00 am. School starts at 915 and ends 345.
Your schedule would not work with the schools in my town. Some buses come earlier , and then it works.

My job also gave me 9 days PTO so that wasn’t nearly enough for all my kids days off , sick days etc.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:54 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Ok, to me going into debt is not a choice. It's what happens when I don't make other, better choices.

I went into debt over the years, as I know most in the frum community do, because I had no choice.

I don't like it. I really don't like it, and I can't even see that it's a long term solution at all. I'm trying to get a job that will pay everything up, but I'm trying to figure out how to do it. This is why I'm posting.

Like I said, everyone keeps saying that you need two incomes to survive, but I'm trying to figure out how to make that second income and I'm just not seeing it.

Not to mention the ENORMOUS judgment I heard from any friends that I have discussed this with - you would think I was proposing to murder my kids.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:55 pm

dorothy1 wrote:

Yup, I think we're in the same town. My school's secretary walks in at 9:05 the earliest.

dorothy1

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:56 pm

watergirl wrote:

Not everyone has someone they can send their kids to every day after school...
I think the bottom line is for the vast majority of typical frum families , one parent needs a very flexible schedule while there are young kids

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:59 pm

Once babies turn 3, child care costs aka tuition is no longer optional. So after childcare costs really shouldn't always be factored into the equation. Most of us who work are doing so because we have to, even if a lot is going to child care. It's more about keeping current so that when you really need to work, you're not looked at as washed up and rejoining the workforce after a decade long hiatus.
And a lot of us work part time, like until 3pm or in the public school system which starts earlier but also ends around 3pm so we can juggle two jobs aka being home when the kids come home.
It's hard. No lie. Sometimes I just wish I could stay home and and concentrate on the home front more. It feels especially impossible until the 5 months postpartum mark. But we do need both incomes.

watergirl

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:59 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I know this is serious! Thats why I am trying to help!!

Only you know what you really need to worry about in terms of cleaning help. I know myself, I can not afford it so I dont have, and I am not a powerhouse women, I just learned to be ok with a house that is not in tip-top shape or anywhere near that.

You are ahead of the game because you dont have to pay for childcare anymore, only tuition. So your hours are a bit better. If the last bus comes around 9, can you make deals with any of your neighbors or friends? Like a barter? What can you trade off to them? Or, can you pay a local teen or post seminary young woman to come to your house at 8am every day and get them off to the bus and you leave for work? Many people where I live do that, minus the bus. They have someone come for an hour or 30 mins every am and stay until carpools come. If starting earlier is not possible, can you barter with someone for after school care? If bartering is not possible, than you may have to consider whats more important to you - cleaning help or paying a sitter so you can work until 5 or so. Truth is, if you find a teen to come every am and pay them $10/day, thats $50/week, which is not so bad.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:01 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I actually did start a degree a few years ago, but I didn't finish because I don't see how it's going to help me. I would have to start off working very full time and it just wouldn't pay. I think.

Also, not sure how it would work - my kids would come home to nobody?

It sounds to me like you don't want to work and you're looking for excuses.

Your kids would be in daycare or school. Like all the kids from working moms and they all survived.
You can work while they're in school. There's no reason not to.
If you wanna find excuses you'll find a million. If you want to make it work.. you will.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:03 pm

watergirl wrote:

Thank you, watergirl. I took a break from work to read this, and I have to go back now, but I like this idea. If I can get someone to come in the AM, I can work let's say from 8:00 to 4:00 and be "almost" home when my first kid comes home. It's an interesting idea, I'm going to look into it. I don't know if I can find a teen, as rumor has it that in my area they're not interested in working, but maybe I can find someone else. I didn't like the idea of hiring someone on both ends - in the am and the pm - but this idea makes sense. Thanks.