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Poor and middle class attitudes in America
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roses




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:26 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
NY has a right to shelter law that any homeless person can take advantage of. Many people living on the streets have been through the shelter system which can be dangerous and/or difficult to deal with in itself so they choose to stay in the streets.


What is your point?

There is a large group of people who become homeless and are able to move out of that status because of the safety net- shelters, section 8, job training and placement, Medicaid, food stamps, mental health services, etc.

Then there is another group;
The chronically homeless living on the streets are disproportionately mentally ill, drug addicted, and PTSD/vets. Their issues are extremely complex and not indicative of the success or failure of the general US safety net. They need more comprehensive wraparound services that are sadly not adequately in place at this time.

I still am not seeing any evidence for your claim that not having any safety net helps people.
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amother




Coral
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:44 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I'm not voting for anyone who has Communist or socialist leanings.

I'm just pointing out that getting rid of the safety net is not a good thing. And that the government does have some obligations to take care of its citizens.

There are lots of people who are professional "takers" and this is a serious problem, on the other hand I'm not ready to get rid of all safety nets altogether.


Yes, those safety nets should not be eliminated completely. It's like anything else in life - there are many people who probably could have made it if the programs hadn't been there to begin with, but now that they're there and the people rely on them, to withdraw them would be such a shock that the country would collapse.

However, if the U.S. government cracked down on all the professional taking going on in certain particular areas of the East Coast, wouldn't everyone cry anti-Semitism? In reality, what that would be is common sense.
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roses




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:49 pm
amother [ Coral ] wrote:
Yes, those safety nets should not be eliminated completely. It's like anything else in life - there are many people who probably could have made it if the programs hadn't been there to begin with, but now that they're there and the people rely on them, to withdraw them would be such a shock that the country would collapse.

However, if the U.S. government cracked down on all the professional taking going on in certain particular areas of the East Coast, wouldn't everyone cry anti-Semitism? In reality, what that would be is common sense.


Good point.

I am a big proponent of aggressive crackdown of fraudulent use of our government programs, and I would encourage heavy auditing of those who receive the benefits. At the same time I am happy the benefits exist for those who truly need them.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:51 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
If everyone benefits from an educated society then why do we need govt programs such as food stamps and section 8 if we are paying people to get an education through public school? They are educated so they are able to fill the society roles without needing further assistance. A select few can become doctors or specialists and should be able to pay for college themselves instead of making it for everyone and driving up the tuition fee. So either you got the privilege of an education by using other peoples money and you can now give back by becoming a civil servant or serving in military etc. If not, then getting a public school education is not beneficial to anyone and should be abolished altogether leaving everyone to pay for their own kids education. So I ask again, why should someone without kids pay for the education of other peoples kids if these kids will go on to just be on govt benefits (that the person without kids will now have to fund as well)?


Do you have any idea how many people are not on social assistance who have benefited from public education?
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 8:10 pm
After 20 pages, I think most of us have modified our tones. Let's see if we can agree on most things by now.

1) People should be personally responsible for themselves, I.e. do their best to better their own situation.

2) When it comes to others, we should be compassionate and try to help them if possible (whether through government or charity).

3) There are many situations that make it much harder for people to climb out of poverty.

4) There are people who persevere and through amazing strength still manage to pull themselves out.

5) There are people who don't, but we will not victim-blame because we can't understand their hardships. Instead, we will have compassion and understanding towards them.

6) But we will still motivate ourselves and others to remember that there is always hope and that we should all try our very best to reach our full potential and not allow ourselves to wallow in pity.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 8:56 pm
There are a lot of problems with the current welfare system that are not related to the concept itself, but are just a part of the way that this specific system is configured.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 8:57 pm
roses wrote:
Good point.

I am a big proponent of aggressive crackdown of fraudulent use of our government programs, and I would encourage heavy auditing of those who receive the benefits. At the same time I am happy the benefits exist for those who truly need them.


One thing to remember is that few people depend on these programs for long periods. Of the one-in-five Americans who participated in a program like Medicaid or food stamps from 2009 through 2012, the Census Bureau reported that 56 percent stopped participating within 36 months, while 43 percent lingered between three and four years. Nearly one-third stopped receiving benefits within one year.

42 percent of all SNAP participants live in households where someone is working and more than 80 percent of SNAP households had a job the year before or the year after receiving SNAP.

So while I agree that we should crack down on fraud, we should remember that these programs are usually short term.
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amother




Amber
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:10 pm
I'm late to the party that is this thread, but as a safety net program recipient, I would like to point out that the paperwork and appointments required for application, renewals, follow-ups, and audits are almost a part-time job in itself. Adding more audits on top of that might succeed in finding some of the fraud but will also raise administrative costs, cause some eligible people to lose benefits because of onerous compliance requirements, and/or affect their job attendence while they deal with their follow-up appointments.

I wish the indignation about the relatively small amount of fraud were redirected towards people on top of the pyramid who cheat the tax system.
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amother




Sapphire
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:24 pm
the medicare system is also messed up. I'm not familiar with other government programs but it was very easy to get on and we had to work very hard to get off. They just werent terminating our coverage...
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:11 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Communism is bad, but not because the Russia that the communists overthrew was so wonderful. Tearing down a broken system isn't easy, but building a new one that works is the hard part when it comes to revolutions.


Eggs and omelets, eh?
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:32 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
You don’t vote??? Why on earth not? You seem very disgruntled with the current state of affairs.

I asked because your opinions on what government spend on.

I thought personal attacks were not allowed on this site? But saying that if you vote you wont be disgruntled is not accurate since many voters are angry and have been rioting in the streets for years so not sure what voting has to do with anything.

Do you know how abusers, molesters etc work? They charm you, compliment you, offer you free candy to lure you into their trap. Once you are hooked, it is hard to get out so the abusers have the power to do whatever they want with you. That is what is going on now with the communists, I mean "democrat socialists". First they lure you in with free college and healthcare then they can do whatever they want because you got your free "candy".

This is what someone wrote about whats happening in California which is what some people want for America:
Quote:
I want to ask you, How did we get to this point, here in California? How did we get to where we are today? A while back, a friend asked me, if I knew how to trap wild boar.
Okay “How do you trap wild boar?” I asked, as if it was completely irrelevant. Oddly enough his tale is very relevant to help answer this question today.
He went on to explain: First start by placing a food trough in a field. Soon they will become accustomed to eating out in the open. Next, place a panel of fence next to the trough.
This is something new and uncomfortable. At first they will be weary and they will approach slowly and cautiously. Soon they will grow accustomed to the fence. They will start to ignore it and eat like it’s not even there! Others will begin to join them.
Once they are acclimated to this change, place another panel beside the trough and let them grow accustomed to this change as well. Repeat this two more times, only leave the last panel wide open. This is your gate. Close the gap little by little each day, until there is just enough room for them to pass.
Soon the boar will be coming and going as if the fencing doesn’t exist at all. The last thing to do is step out from the shadows and close the gate, locking them all inside.
He emphasized, this is a proven and effective strategy!
Whether it is boiling a frog, trapping wild boar or taking our freedom away, it is all done in increments, slowly over time so that we are all affected little by little and it goes unnoticed, until one day it’s too late.
We’ve allowed ourselves to become trapped in California. Many of those who saw it coming have turned around and fled this state.
The democrat legislators and this rogue Governor Gavin Newsom have a super majority! They have closed all the branches of government in around us and Gavin Newsom is standing at the gate ready to close it.
There is a petition being circulated around this state which will begin the process to eliminate Prop 13. First they will start by removing the protections of prop 13 from corporations, business and commercial buildings.
As a home owner, this doesn’t affect you directly. But remember those businesses affected will pass the expenses on to us and our cost of living will go up! The companies who can’t make it will fold and more business, jobs and good people will leave the state, as so many others already have.
Our rogue governor and this socialist legislature are taking more and more from us, little by little, without being noticed.
They have done this so well and so long that we now have the highest taxes of the country! You are taxed more than any other person in this entire nation.
Now Gavin Newsom wants to tax you even more by taking away prop 13! He and his legislature will lie to you and tell you it is only one component of prop 13 they are taking away. They will say it only affects properties owned by business and corporations, but it actually helps strengthen prop 13 for the home owner, which is another lie! They will distract you with lies and promises as another panel is placed around us to set the trap.
If we let them succeed, they will take your prop 13 protection away as well!
Don’t let them fool you into believing this will only effect the “other guy” or the “corporate” world. When their cost of doing business goes up your cost of living goes up. A tax on them is a tax on us!
For those of you living in an apartment complex, you should ask yourself whether or not you live on corporate land! Because if you do, your rent may be about to go way up!
Look around people! The trap is set and we have all walked into it willingly!
We the people voted for the “gas” tax. We willingly TAXED ourselves to fix our roads! Built into the proposition we voted for were guarantees those funds were ONLY to be used to fix our roads and infrastructure. This Governor has misappropriated that money and used it toward climate change projects and the bullet train and anything but our roads.
Governor Newsom has imposed the “personal Mandate” upon California Citizens and requires we all carry personal health insurance at our own expense, under threat of fines and penalties. All the while providing those same services free of charge to foreign nationals who are here illegally.
With very few exceptions, We have the HIGHEST corporate taxes, income, fuel and sales taxes, the highest DMV fees and vehicle taxes, the highest property taxes and the highest homeless rates of the nation. Yet this Governor continually encourages illegal migration of foreign nationals into our country, through his “Sanctuary State Status” in violation of federal law, adding further burden to our own citizens.
Feel those walls closing in around you?!
Well there is another petition out there this one is to recall the governor.
It won’t fix all our problems! But it will help break us out of this trap we have allowed them to enclose around us. Then we will be able to begin to turn our state around and return some sense of sanity to our way of life!
Sign the recall petition! Stop the insanity and put an end to this madness! In his short tenure as Governor, Gavin Newsom has adopted an agenda which has affected us all in a negative way in one form or another for his own political gain.
People who have left California and others who have never lived here, need to understand this is NOT, merely a “California” problem. While the California Bullet train has failed, Gavin Newsom is on the fast track toward the White House unless we all join forces and focus our resources to recall him from the Governor’s office here and now. If we fail here, he will become your problem in the near future and his extreme socialist agenda will be spread across our country like a disease. We MUST spread the word through Social Media because the corrupt Main Stream Media are turning a blind eye to this movement!
Join the Angry Bear movement on Facebook at:
“2 Million Californians To Recall Gavin Newsom”
Twitter @2MCRecallGavin. #NewsomRevolution.



And separately, this is what someone wrote about Venezuala and how socialism destroyed it and will destroy America.-- https://www.usatoday.com/story.....Y58eA

Wake up, American Jews, before its too late.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:49 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
Do you know how abusers, molesters etc work? They charm you, compliment you, offer you free candy to lure you into their trap. Once you are hooked, it is hard to get out so the abusers have the power to do whatever they want with you.

Good analogy for how so-called "capitalists" have convinced people that the favors given to them by the government "trickle down".
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 4:14 pm
roses wrote:
What is your point?

There is a large group of people who become homeless and are able to move out of that status because of the safety net- shelters, section 8, job training and placement, Medicaid, food stamps, mental health services, etc.

Then there is another group;
The chronically homeless living on the streets are disproportionately mentally ill, drug addicted, and PTSD/vets. Their issues are extremely complex and not indicative of the success or failure of the general US safety net. They need more comprehensive wraparound services that are sadly not adequately in place at this time.

I still am not seeing any evidence for your claim that not having any safety net helps people.

You originally said homeless then moved the goalpost to mean those that are on the streets instead of shelters. But being in a shelter does not negate the fact that you are homeless. Unless you want to tell these kids that they are not homeless-- https://www.nytimes.com/intera.....jzt3w

As for the mentally ill and drug addicts, there are lots of services that they qualify for and may not be interested in accepting. The money has also been mismanaged but no one is being held accountable for that either-- https://nypost.com/2019/02/28/.....oney/

So taxpayers are already paying for free public schools (which even kids from rich families can get for free), after school programs, sports, esl classes, tutors, special ed, breakfast, lunch, etc yet schools are still failing. And taxpayers are paying money for the mentally ill and that is being mismanaged as well. So we are paying for failing schools and failing mental health programs but somehow we should pay more for kids to fail out of college and not get the appropriate care they need because of mismanagement? Why? And how much money do you think it would take to fix the current problems before we tackle anything else?
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 4:20 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Good analogy for how so-called "capitalists" have convinced people that the favors given to them by the government "trickle down".

Lets see, if you have money then you can afford to pay the full education for your kids private school tuition which helps the needy families in the school who cant afford it and need scholarships. More of your money would also cover other families who send their kids to public schools. You would be able to pay for nannies, housekeepers, gardners, etc who would then be able to rent their own apartments and put food on their table. You would be giving charity to help the needy as well. Is that what you mean by trickle down economy? That if you have money and spend it how you see fit then other people benefit from it as well?
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