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-> Interesting Discussions
Ravenclaw
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 Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:03 pm
| simcha2 wrote: | You are only able to move income if you have extra income to move. If people are living paycheck to paycheck they can't move income into retirement saving. Having that opportunity is already a privilege. As is having access to education that allows you to be in the 1%.
(See my original post with regard to aspirational thinking) |
My very thought. Though I consider myself centrist for the most part, what made me lean left rather than right was that I felt many people on the right didn’t fully understand the realities of the poor.
Ben Shapiro was once saying something about how everyone in America, even the poor, at least have a microwave and a car.
And I was like, they do?!
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Ravenclaw
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:11 pm
| small bean wrote: | This is true if you are very poor it will be hard to climb out of it because it means letting go of the safety net that you have. So for example you make 10k a year and thr government pays your housing, food, insurance, cell phone bill. So now your actual income is more like 35k. But when you jump to 20k, you lose that safetynet and you are still not at 35k, so now you are poorer than you were. The motivation and the inability to jump quickly, really makes it extremely difficult.
But there are millions of stories of kids growing up poor in the projects and becoming successful adults. That is the American dream. |
But these points you bring up are problems that should be addressed.
There are also issues like lower level education (since public schools are funded by local property taxes), lack of funding for higher education and investment opportunities, and crime ridden areas where gangs and pimps lure in broken youth before they fully realize what they are getting themselves into.
I think addressing the above issues would help Americans in the long run much more than more housing projects.
And yes, the American Dream is that anyone can make it. But not everyone is anyone, and it would be nice if we could find a way to help the majority of people as well.
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small bean
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:12 pm
| simcha2 wrote: | You are only able to move income if you have extra income to move. If people are living paycheck to paycheck they can't move income into retirement saving. Having that opportunity is already a privilege. As is having access to education that allows you to be in the 1%.
(See my original post with regard to aspirational thinking) |
First of all the really poor a single under 65 who makes like 12k a year doesn't pay any tax. So I assume you are talking about middle class, where there is little disposable income. Again, you choose where to live, yo decide how much of your budget goes to rent, food, car, insurance etc. That is a choice you make.
When I got married I made less than 25k a year and I didnt have support and we were moving income. It was a priority to us and we made economical choices. To this day, my total annual income is probably less than a lot of people here and I still am putting all my husbands income into nontaxable places.
It is a choice you make on what you do with your money. If you want to put away you can. If you want to grow your income you can. You have choices even if you dont know the choices or how to make it happen. So the fact that you chose to live th e lifestyle you chose does not mean you dont have a choice to lower your lifestyle and have less taxable income. It doesn't make it unfair that the rich can have the lifestyle you want and move income.
*** you does not mean you specifically
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small bean
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:15 pm
| Ravenclaw wrote: | But these points you bring up are problems that should be addressed.
There are also issues like lower level education (since public schools are funded by local property taxes), lack of funding for higher education and investment opportunities, and crime ridden areas where gangs and pimps lure in broken youth before they fully realize what they are getting themselves into.
I think addressing the above issues would help Americans in the long run much more than more housing projects.
And yes, the American Dream is that anyone can make it. But not everyone is anyone, and it would be nice if we could find a way to help the majority of people as well. |
The government can't do that no matter how much money we throw at them.
This is what you need a social fabric for. That is our job as compassionate people. We need to go over to the people around us and help them out.
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small bean
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:17 pm
| amother [ Emerald ] wrote: | | Every penny? How do you manage that? |
He doesn't bring home any income. He works for the future and I work for today.
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amother
Papaya
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:21 pm
yes it really is about what works - what works in reality
"over" taxation or too heavy taxation I.e. "soak the rich" or however one wants to phrase it does not work because it cuts incentive and motivates people to leave to take their businesses, jobs, and money, taxable and otherwise out of the country
it has historically NEVER worked and only ruined economies and countries that have tried it
and as posts have noted: governments do not do better with more money
already inefficient enough -- ex. post office versus UPS/fed ex...nuff said
and they do not use it to "pay down" deficit
just does not work
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amother
Magenta
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:22 pm
| small bean wrote: | | He doesn't bring home any income. He works for the future and I work for today. |
His income is tax deferred. Not non-taxable.
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small bean
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:22 pm
The left doesn't understand the poor either. You really think politicians or commentators on the left know what it means to be poor?
The right believes that social fabric is the biggest tool to help the poor. While the left believes that the government can fix the poor.
We see this best from black people who in recent years have moved over to the right. Like candace o.
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#BestBubby
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:23 pm
It's been shown that lowering taxes INCREASES tax revenue - so the POOR benefit from tax cuts.
Tax cuts help everyone - poor (more revenue for welfare) middle class (more jobs) and wealthy (more profit).
Government spends majority of taxes on bloated bureaucracy (themselves) and only small amount go to the poor.
Too high taxation on wealthy is killing the geese that lay the golden eggs.
Not smart.
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small bean
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:27 pm
| amother [ Magenta ] wrote: | | His income is tax deferred. Not non-taxable. |
Actually some is deferred and some nontaxable. I'm keeping it very simple for the purpose of this thread and my husband's privacy.
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amother
Magenta
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 6:56 pm
| small bean wrote: | | Actually some is deferred and some nontaxable. I'm keeping it very simple for the purpose of this thread and my husband's privacy. |
I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is as it relates to your husband - but its a meaningful distinction.
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simcha2
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 7:22 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | It's been shown that lowering taxes INCREASES tax revenue - so the POOR benefit from tax cuts.
Tax cuts help everyone - poor (more revenue for welfare) middle class (more jobs) and wealthy (more profit).
Government spends majority of taxes on bloated bureaucracy (themselves) and only small amount go to the poor.
Too high taxation on wealthy is killing the geese that lay the golden eggs.
Not smart. |
Source?
I assume you're taking about the Laffer curve. Pretty sure we're nowhere close to the right hand side. Please bring a source where cutting tax rates has increased revenue without significantly increasing the deficit.
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amother
Navy
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 7:24 pm
| simcha2 wrote: | Actually, the very wealthy pay a lower percentage of their taxes than everyone other than the very poor (below poverty line). In 2018 the effective tax rate for the 400 wealthiest families was 23% compared to 24.2 percent for the bottom 50%of families. They paid proportionally less.
Of course this isn't does taxing the very rich pay for welfare programs. It's how do we pay for the whole economy? Military, education, infrastructure.
Why people support tax cuts for the very wealthy to their own detriment (they have to pay proportionally more) is a mixture of aspirational thinking (when I make it, I don't want to pay so much), lack of education and horrible misrepresentation of facts (it's going to lead to socialism). |
The rich may also pay more for property taxes especially if they have several houses and in expensive neighborhoods so its not just income tax that you need to look at but also how much more they pay for property taxes than people who rent, live in public housing, or only have one house to pay taxes on.
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nicole81
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 7:34 pm
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What's the definition of rich in this context? There's a huge difference between the top 1% and top 5%. And a top 10% income isn't anywhere liveable for frum families in many major metro areas.
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simcha2
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 7:41 pm
| small bean wrote: | First of all the really poor a single under 65 who makes like 12k a year doesn't pay any tax. So I assume you are talking about middle class, where there is little disposable income. Again, you choose where to live, yo decide how much of your budget goes to rent, food, car, insurance etc. That is a choice you make.
When I got married I made less than 25k a year and I didnt have support and we were moving income. It was a priority to us and we made economical choices. To this day, my total annual income is probably less than a lot of people here and I still am putting all my husbands income into nontaxable places.
It is a choice you make on what you do with your money. If you want to put away you can. If you want to grow your income you can. You have choices even if you dont know the choices or how to make it happen. So the fact that you chose to live th e lifestyle you chose does not mean you dont have a choice to lower your lifestyle and have less taxable income. It doesn't make it unfair that the rich can have the lifestyle you want and move income.
*** you does not mean you specifically |
Making more that $12K doesn't make you middle class.
But let's assume you have $35K and don't qualify for programs. You have $35K because you work 67 hours a week at a $10/h job. The $10 is actually pretty good in your depressed part of the country, because the federal minimum wage is 7.25.
Because you work 67 hours a week you are not able to attend community college because you should actually like to see your kids for more than 10 minutes a day. A significant part of your income goes to childcare, because school is from 8-2 every day and has vacations. You have no chance of getting a better education and absolutely no chance of being in the 1%. You would like your kids to move up, but, you can't get to the library to get them books because it's only open during the hours you're working. Your one paycheck away from not being able to pay rent and one hospital visit (cost of ambulance, lost wages) away from losing your car. (Better hope your kid doesn't fall off the bed). If you do lose your car, then you can't get to work, and there goes your $10/h paycheck.
Yup, definitely think these people should be paying proportionally more tax than someone with a net worth of 50 billion.
If you think I'm being dramatic...58% of Americans have less $1000 in savings.
The American dream isn't attainable for everyone.
(When I was in college, I was arguing that life was a meritocracy. I had an academic scholarship to a great high school, and was first generation to attend college (my brother got there first, but neither parent has a degree). I thought I was self made. My professor asked how many books we had in the house. (A. Thousands). My parents won't wealthy, and money was sometimes tight.
But it was never a choice between food, heat, medecine or rent. I had access to literature and art, science and philosophy. To think I made it on my own was the arrogance of youth. )
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small bean
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 7:51 pm
| simcha2 wrote: | Making more that $12K doesn't make you middle class.
But let's assume you have $35K and don't qualify for programs. You have $35K because you work 67 hours a week at a $10/h job. The $10 is actually pretty good in your depressed part of the country, because the federal minimum wage is 7.25.
Because you work 67 hours a week you are not able to attend community college because you should actually like to see your kids for more than 10 minutes a day. A significant part of your income goes to childcare, because school is from 8-2 every day and has vacations. You have no chance of getting a better education and absolutely no chance of being in the 1%. You would like your kids to move up, but, you can't get to the library to get them books because it's only open during the hours you're working. Your one paycheck away from not being able to pay rent and one hospital visit (cost of ambulance, lost wages) away from losing your car. (Better hope your kid doesn't fall off the bed). If you do lose your car, then you can't get to work, and there goes your $10/h paycheck.
Yup, definitely think these people should be paying proportionally more tax than someone with a net worth of 50 billion.
If you think I'm being dramatic...58% of Americans have less $1000 in savings.
The American dream isn't attainable for everyone.
(When I was in college, I was arguing that life was a meritocracy. I had an academic scholarship to a great high school, and was first generation to attend college (my brother got there first, but neither parent has a degree). I thought I was self made. My professor asked how many books we had in the house. (A. Thousands). My parents won't wealthy, and money was sometimes tight.
But it was never a choice between food, heat, medecine or rent. I had access to literature and art, science and philosophy. To think I made it on my own was the arrogance of youth. ) |
Choice a -move to a place where you have more options anonymous will have time to learn skills
Choice b- take out loans and take risk
Choice c- where is person that had children with you. What is he doing?
Again, there are choices, he may feel stuck but he can move from it.
The fact that Americans dont have savings isn't so much about their income but more on how they spend. 35k doesn't have to be so little, depending on your lifestyle. Anyway he has kids and likey gets all his tax back in child tax credits. So he is not contributing either.
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small bean
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 7:54 pm
| simcha2 wrote: | Source?
I assume you're taking about the Laffer curve. Pretty sure we're nowhere close to the right hand side. Please bring a source where cutting tax rates has increased revenue without significantly increasing the deficit. |
The deficit won't go down if we keep increasing the budget..
After the recent tax cuts the dollar amount that was brought in was more than the before the tax cuts.
We also increased the budget and obviously they dont offset each other.
We need to lower the budget.
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simcha2
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 7:56 pm
| small bean wrote: | | The deficit won't go down if we keep increasing the budget.. |
Or increase revenue.
But #BestBubby made a big claim "that has been proved" asking to see a source for that proof.
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simcha2
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 8:00 pm
| small bean wrote: | The deficit won't go down if we keep increasing the budget..
After the recent tax cuts the dollar amount that was brought in was more than the before the tax cuts.
We also increased the budget and obviously they dont offset each other.
We need to lower the budget. |
Not so
https://www.taxpolicycenter.or.....-2018
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simcha2
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Mon, Nov 25 2019, 8:03 pm
| small bean wrote: | Choice a -move to a place where you have more options anonymous will have time to learn skills
Choice b- take out loans and take risk
Choice c- where is person that had children with you. What is he doing?
Again, there are choices, he may feel stuck but he can move from it.
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Choice a) not possible because moving is a cost and he has no savings to make the move
Choice b) no loans because low credit score (never had a chance to build credit)
C, the wife died in a tragic accident. The funeral wiped out all savings. (It was very sad)
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