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Cant stand how much money it costs to be frum
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ectomorph




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:48 am
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
In my community the ones with the more conspicuous consumption are the more RW people. The MO families are much simpler.

Not in my community...
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amother




Pearl
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:05 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
My remarks are based on observations of many hundreds of secular people that I know. Your remarks are based on what? What in the world do you know about people who go clubbing?

And please realize that secular does not equal committed Conservative or Conservadox or Reform. I don't know to what extent choice of denomination and level of commitment among the non-Orthodox affect a family's expenses, so I'm not commenting on that. (Though I do know that my Conservadox and Conservative friends dress relatively simply for shul; they wear their business or business casual clothing, so it's not an extra expense for them.) But I think it's important that we not denigrate people who belong to other Jewish denominations. If you mean non-Orthodox, just say so.



Your observations are based on " many hundreds of secular people" I'm laughing my tooches off. Either you're a crazy stalker or how do you know exactly how these MANY HUNDREDS of people spend their money? Pathetic.

I grew up completely secular, my husband aswell we are still friends with secular jews and lots of non jews. We work in a secular environment (still I don't observe HUNDREDS of people LOL
LOL LOL )
I'm sorry I can't compete with your observation since I don't believe in stalking people and I only know what I'm told by them.

Most of the young secular people I know do go clubbing, go to conerts etc.

I'm sorry if your hundreds of people you know are either boring or old. Or maybe they aren't as many as you think LOL
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allthingsblue




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:59 am
ectomorph wrote:
Not in my community...


I think you (and your community) might be part of the select few for whom the chareidi philosophy actually works. lol hakavod!
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banana123




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 12:18 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
Seagreen Hooray but most people aren't brave enough to Buck the system and be an outlier.

It takes a lot of guts to do that.

I pay my expensive tuition and they yell you must get tutors. Why can't they just do poorly and be a bad student like in the olden days unless they decide to be a good student At wits end . I don't have money for this. At wits end

But that's a choice, not to buck the system.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 12:23 pm
BadTichelDay wrote:
B"H we've got a bed for every family member. I think the US problems are partially based on social structure and habit (as in over-expensive, inefficient, overstaffed schools and living in in-town "in" areas instead of OOT) and partially on social pressure and conformism which leads to a strange form of forced consumerism and fashion obsession. Luckily my community here is still largely free of that. When our first dc was born, we bought a second hand no-brand-name pram in a neutral color. It served us well for 3 children in a row. In the US everyone would have screamed "nebbach!" I guess. Here nobody batted an eyelid. It was no status symbol. I didn't need one. It was a device to roll babies from A to B. My children wear non-matching cheap or second hand tzanua clothes. So do I and if anyone has a problem with it, it's their problem. I dress below my means, out of principle. Buying brand stuff is a form of waste in my opinion. Clothes do not define my value as a person. Of course a big money saver is that school and preschool are frum and cost-free asides from a few hundred shekels for extra activities.

My second-hand Perego served us well through DC1, we used it some for DC2 (we had another one we used more, but it's gone now, was just not useful anymore), and now with DC3 that secondhand Perego's handle broke (we already fixed the axle of one wheel). We still need a stroller for DC3 but I sooo don't want to buy new. I'm like praying that someone will have a secondhand one that they can give me. We could buy new, sure, but it would take a bit out of our savings and frankly, I see no need for a new stroller, I just need one that works.
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BadTichelDay




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 12:53 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
My second-hand Perego served us well through DC1, we used it some for DC2 (we had another one we used more, but it's gone now, was just not useful anymore), and now with DC3 that secondhand Perego's handle broke (we already fixed the axle of one wheel). We still need a stroller for DC3 but I sooo don't want to buy new. I'm like praying that someone will have a secondhand one that they can give me. We could buy new, sure, but it would take a bit out of our savings and frankly, I see no need for a new stroller, I just need one that works.

Ours did fall apart as well around the time dc 3 learned to walk.
If you are in Israel, try יד 2, that's where ours came from. Or if available, neighborhood used items groups or a gemach, I guess.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:22 pm
BadTichelDay wrote:
Ours did fall apart as well around the time dc 3 learned to walk.
If you are in Israel, try יד 2, that's where ours came from. Or if available, neighborhood used items groups or a gemach, I guess.

Yad2 is a good idea, but I am always nervous to use it. Will give it a shot though.
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amother




Apricot
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:35 pm
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
In my community the ones with the more conspicuous consumption are the more RW people. The MO families are much simpler.


In my non-scientific observations, I see the same thing. In Williamsburg/Boro Park, I see a lot more Bugaboos, kids matched to the 9s, more pressure to fit in based purely on looks. When other avenues are closed to you (or highly frowned upon), I guess there’s nothing left to do but put your time and effort into appearances.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:39 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
Your observations are based on " many hundreds of secular people" I'm laughing my tooches off. Either you're a crazy stalker or how do you know exactly how these MANY HUNDREDS of people spend their money? Pathetic.

I grew up completely secular, my husband aswell we are still friends with secular jews and lots of non jews. We work in a secular environment (still I don't observe HUNDREDS of people LOL
LOL LOL )
I'm sorry I can't compete with your observation since I don't believe in stalking people and I only know what I'm told by them.

Most of the young secular people I know do go clubbing, go to conerts etc.

I'm sorry if your hundreds of people you know are either boring or old. Or maybe they aren't as many as you think LOL


I'm not a stalker. I do know many hundreds of people quite well. We kind of grew up together in the same academic field, and meet each other at conferences year after year. We've grown together, seeing how our families grow and change over the years. I'm reasonably friendly, and although I'm not a social butterfly, it's not that hard to have reasonably good friendships with many hundreds of people. I'm surprised that you think it's a big deal. People routinely make weddings for 400 or 500 people, and these are the closest of their friends.

Of course I don't monitor their checkbooks or credit card usage or anything like that. But people talk about their lifestyles. People overshare, in my opinion, and I have a reasonably good memory, so I remember what they tell me.

I know a few secular people who spend a lot of money traveling to fancy places multiple times a year and spend lots of money for expensive lessons in various subjects. But most secular people that I know will travel at most once or twice a year to a semi-fancy place. Sometimes they'll combine it with a conference, so that at least one air fare is covered. Even if not, a week's vacation in a semi-fancy place can be a lot less than Pesach in a hotel or camp for one kid for the summer.

This could be a socioeconomic issue. The secular people that I know are highly educated (nearly everyone has a PhD, sometimes in addition to a law degree or an MD or other advanced degree), and mostly combine a strong work ethic (and love of their work) with strong family values. They engage in a lot of athletic activities, and while some love expensive activities like skiing (which IME many MO do as well), most do simple activities like hiking; their kids do things like Little League and track and field. Maybe we are boring, and maybe we've always been old. But I don't think so.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:01 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
I'm not a stalker. I do know many hundreds of people quite well. We kind of grew up together in the same academic field, and meet each other at conferences year after year. We've grown together, seeing how our families grow and change over the years. I'm reasonably friendly, and although I'm not a social butterfly, it's not that hard to have reasonably good friendships with many hundreds of people. I'm surprised that you think it's a big deal. People routinely make weddings for 400 or 500 people, and these are the closest of their friends.

Of course I don't monitor their checkbooks or credit card usage or anything like that. But people talk about their lifestyles. People overshare, in my opinion, and I have a reasonably good memory, so I remember what they tell me.

I know a few secular people who spend a lot of money traveling to fancy places multiple times a year and spend lots of money for expensive lessons in various subjects. But most secular people that I know will travel at most once or twice a year to a semi-fancy place. Sometimes they'll combine it with a conference, so that at least one air fare is covered. Even if not, a week's vacation in a semi-fancy place can be a lot less than Pesach in a hotel or camp for one kid for the summer.

This could be a socioeconomic issue. The secular people that I know are highly educated (nearly everyone has a PhD, sometimes in addition to a law degree or an MD or other advanced degree), and mostly combine a strong work ethic (and love of their work) with strong family values. They engage in a lot of athletic activities, and while some love expensive activities like skiing (which IME many MO do as well), most do simple activities like hiking; their kids do things like Little League and track and field. Maybe we are boring, and maybe we've always been old. But I don't think so.


Hi Joy,
What I have lately learned about this site is that the peanut gallery will react if you don't qualify a statement that it's based on the fact that you are making statements about the people who you personally know and you are not making a blanket statement about secular society.
There are some very wealthy non-Jews and non-frum Jews as well as people who live in poverty. Many keep up with the Joneses and we see that from the shopping projections for this season. Others consider it a luxury if the heat is on.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:33 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Hi Joy,
What I have lately learned about this site is that the peanut gallery will react if you don't qualify a statement that it's based on the fact that you are making statements about the people who you personally know and you are not making a blanket statement about secular society.
There are some very wealthy non-Jews and non-frum Jews as well as people who live in poverty. Many keep up with the Joneses and we see that from the shopping projections for this season. Others consider it a luxury if the heat is on.


Thank you, southernbubby. I made it quite clear in my posts on p. 11 and p. 12 that I was remarking on secular people that I know. The same is true of amother pearl, except that it appears that despite her secular background, she knows many fewer secular people.

I think amother pearl is finding it hard to believe that an Orthodox person is as close to the secular world as I am. I, in turn, am agog at how insular her life is. Among the people that I am in touch with on a semi-yearly or yearly basis, I have more secular friends than Orthodox friends.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:04 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Thank you, southernbubby. I made it quite clear in my posts on p. 11 and p. 12 that I was remarking on secular people that I know. The same is true of amother pearl, except that it appears that despite her secular background, she knows many fewer secular people.

I think amother pearl is finding it hard to believe that an Orthodox person is as close to the secular world as I am. I, in turn, am agog at how insular her life is. Among the people that I am in touch with on a semi-yearly or yearly basis, I have more secular friends than Orthodox friends.


Yeah, when I tried that, the arguers who decided to be victims still accused me of stereotyping because the people that I knew were atypical. I guess that you can't discuss anything with unreasonable people.
Visit the mall and watch the world spend. Go to the airport and check out the crowd. Everyone is coming back today and traffic is gridlocked. I agree with you that the rest of the world spends freely.
I didn't grow up frum so we did have more latitude in terms of what crowd to follow.
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amother




Jade
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:12 pm
My secular cousins spend way more on clothes, trips and everything.. they have all this peer pressure that I don't have. They go to fancy events, care much more about fashion and what's"in". In my experience, their secular world pressure and the amount they spend is much more than the regular frum person.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:24 pm
I would also say, Daddy loved casinos and casinos loved Daddy. They knew how to woo senior citizens. He loved all things collectable. To me, he typified the way that non religious people spend.
My sister, by contrast, is a Conservative Jew and is frugal.
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amother




Red
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:15 pm
GALS, KEEP YOUR BLINDERS ON, if you wish.

According to epigenetics American Jews tend to be blood type O which requires flesh foods. Hence we eat lots of chicken and meat.

My son who is in yeshiva in Israel eats regularly by aunts and uncles. (His yeshiva is accommodating the American boys by feeding them chicken every night. It has proven cheaper than a full course meal that does nothing to satisfy them).
Also, he never saw so much food preparation and variety of foods as he sees at his dozen of aunts and uncles homes....
No single factor makes any country more or less gashmius in the year 2019.

There is PLENTY OF GASHMIUS WHEREVER I HAVE BEEN, whether it is Israel, Europe, Canada the great old oUT of town. I live in Brooklyn. Keep your blinders on if you wish.
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amother




Ecru
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:57 pm
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
So why do you think that the further right you go in Orthodox Judaism, the higher the material standards get?

RW is just a social circle and set of societal norms to comply with. Unfortunately, it doesn't necessarily equal a closer relationship to HKBH or having Avodas Hashem being the prime motivator and center of ones life. Externals may get you far in life, but they don't necessarily get you anywhere in the World that really counts.
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amother




Vermilion
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:14 pm
There are amazing benefits to living in Eretz Yisroel. It's our home, first and foremost. Education is cheaper, healthcare cheaper, you don't feel the pressure to have what everyone else also doesn't have.

And yet there are things people should be aware of. The work situation is not great: you've got over-qualified chutznik tech workers working freelance from home, because that pays better than Israeli companies or they simply couldn't land a decent job. It's difficult to get hired by a tech firm unless you fit into the office crowd, which often is secular and based in Tel Aviv or Haifa. That's not to say it can't be done, but it's not the norm to pop in from chutz l'aretz and be hired at a job earning 20,000nis/month.

The school and chinuch cultures are different as well. Israeli children are more direct, to put it nicely, than their chutznik counterparts. The way the children behave here can be unnerving to Anglo/European parents who expect calmer, more refined and respectful behaviour from their children. If your kids go Israeli, parenting will become a challenge on a whole other level. Often kids her behave in ways which simply would not be acceptable in an Anglo/European country, and that will influence your children, who might ultimately behave/speak the similarly.

Be ready to find a society and make yourself fit the cookie cutter as best as you can. In Israel there is very much a concept of 'us' and 'them,' and I've found that regardless of which 'us' you're part of, it's considered very important to express the right opinion, wear the right style and tote the party line as it were to be accepted. Your children will catch onto this early, and try their best to fit in, and you'll be expected to do the same.

So despite the wonderful things about living in Eretz Yisroel and how difficult it would be to leave, it's difficult for our family to imagine this as the place we want to stay permanently.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:07 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:


There are some interesting ideas here such as moving to Cincinatti, but A. not everyone can move to Cincinatti, maybe people have jobs or family they can't move away from, and B. once your kids get old enough to go to high school and higher I think that the tuition is no longer subsidized (if they are going to a yeshiva in a different town, for example). Anyway, that's not a real solution, we can't all move to Cincinatti.


Not disagreeing with your post, just wanted to clarify that high school tuition IS subsidized by tuition vouchers, worth 6K actually (vs 4650 for elementary).
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:33 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
Not disagreeing with your post, just wanted to clarify that high school tuition IS subsidized by tuition vouchers, worth 6K actually (vs 4650 for elementary).


Not if you're going to a yeshivah that's not in Ohio. There are not too many yeshivah high schools in Ohio, and they are not a perfect fit for every boy. In any case I'm up to bais medrash.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Dec 02 2019, 8:52 am
That is correct. But that isn't different than not living in a place with no vouchers to begin with Wink
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