I'm speechless | Imamother

freilich

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 5:03 pm

roses wrote:

I don't believe that the windows response is coming from a place of "everything goes".

Christianity has a very emphasis on forgiveness, and it is considered a good thing to forgive someone who perpetrated a crime. There seems to be a heavily religious influence to the widow and her choice to express forgiveness. Its not a new, modern invention. It's actually a very ancient tradition.

I hear you about Christianity's viewpoint about forgiveness.

freilich

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 5:09 pm

I didn't assume Pause was mocking. In actuality, this has been taken to a level of absurdity, such as convicted rapists who, after or before their convictions, identified as female and were incarcerated in female-only prisons. It wasn't shocking when they went on to sxually assault female inmates.

There have been headlines addressing the issue of men claiming to identify as female so as to use women only restrooms, only to then either assault women or behave inappropriately.[/quote]

This this this! A 1000 times this! And that's why this is such a warped mindset. Why should I be afraid to use, or to have my kids use public bathrooms? I'm nervous lately at the gym, and for good reason.

roses

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 5:21 pm

freilich wrote:

This this this! A 1000 times this! And that's why this is such a warped mindset. Why should I be afraid to use, or to have my kids use public bathrooms? I'm nervous lately at the gym, and for good reason.[/quote]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that transgender people are at higher risk of perpetrator behavior than the general population. On the contrary, they are far more at risk of being s--xually assaulted and the target of hate crimes than they are of being perpetrators. These baseless accusations are just fear mongering.

Furthermore, boys are just as much at risk from male perpetrators when using the men's bathroom and women on girls. Same gender perpetrator attacks are a very serious thing. Common sense safety needs to be applied no matter which gender at all times.

Second, would you want someone who has a beard, male clothing, Adams apple and male voice to use the women's bathroom simply because he has a v-gina?

Would you want a person with breasts, long hair, a feminine voice and and clothing, using the male bathroom while your husband and son are at the urinal because she has a p--nis?

Because it sounds like that is what people are asking for

Laiya

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 5:32 pm

roses wrote:

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that transgender people are at higher risk of perpetrator behavior than the general population. On the contrary, they are far more at risk of being s--xually assaulted and the target of hate crimes than they are of being perpetrators. These baseless accusations are just fear mongering.

Furthermore, boys are just as much at risk from male perpetrators when using the men's bathroom and women on girls. Same gender perpetrator attacks are a very serious thing. Common sense safety needs to be applied no matter which gender at all times.

Second, would you want someone who has a beard, male clothing, Adams apple and male voice to use the women's bathroom simply because he has a v-gina?

Would you want a person with breasts, long hair, a feminine voice and and clothing, using the male bathroom while your husband and son are at the urinal because she has a p--nis?

Because it sounds like that is what people are asking for

No, the concern is not that transgender people are perpetrators. It's that male perpetrators can claim to be transgender or "female identifying" or whatever, as a means of gaining access to females.

I'm not sure I'm following your other questions.

roses

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 5:37 pm

Laiya wrote:

A perpetrator doesn't need to claim anything to gain access to victims. No one enters a bathroom and says "I am transgender. That's why I'm here.". People just use the bathroom that they feel represents their outward presentation. There is no admission test. If a male perpetrator wanted to gain access to hurt girls, it is easy enough to just go in disguise and do so. And it was just as easy to do so fifty years ago before gender issues were talked about.

If you want to talk about perpetrators and safety issues, that's another very important issue. But the transgender topic has nothing to do with it.

freilich

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 6:39 pm

roses wrote:

Your right about public bathroom safety. I don’t ever send a kid there alone.

Honestly I don’t care about statistics here. I care that my security, about being only around same gender people, in public private places, has been shattered. And all in the name of equality and fairness. To me that is middos Sdom.

That’s before even thinking about the Torah viewpoint here. Who’s to say if I go to a public pool, with women only hours, that a male that has transitioned isn’t there?

The rest what you said I’m not following exact what you mean.

chanatron1000

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 6:48 pm

roses wrote:

Second, would you want someone who has a beard, male clothing, Adams apple and male voice to use the women's bathroom simply because he has a v-gina?

Would you want a person with breasts, long hair, a feminine voice and and clothing, using the male bathroom while your husband and son are at the urinal because she has a p--nis?

Are you implying that cisgender men who have breasts, long hair, a feminine voice, and feminine taste in clothing and cisgender women with facial hair, Adam's apples, deep voices and masculine taste in clothing should have to use the opposite gender restroom?

Laiya

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 6:51 pm

roses wrote:

Of course anyone can commit a crime if they're motivated enough. But allowing someone who looks like a male to use a women's restroom or to be incarcerated in an all-female prison, just makes it that much easier for the would-be perpetrator. High school girls' locker rooms is another example. I see this as common sense. There's a reason that these areas have always been gender-segregated.

roses

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 7:23 pm

Laiya wrote:

Your argument is actually supportive of transgender rights and what they are asking for. People who identify as a specific gender, who typically have the external appearance of that gender, should be allowed to use the facilities of the gender that they are dressing and identifying with. You are suggesting that this could have an added safety bonus for others, which I think is fair (having consistent gender expressions in each bathroom).

Your argument directly opposes what what conservatives are advocating for. They are advocating for genitals to be the deciding factor, not gender expression. They want people who have female genitalia to all use the female bathroom, and all people with male genitalia to use the men's room. This scenario would mean that people who are outwardly male will be using women's bathrooms, and people who are outwardly female will be using men's bathrooms. Which you are suggesting would be a safety risk and would normalize the idea of men in women's bathrooms and vice versa.

In terms of actual safety, I'm not convinced either way. I think the most sensical way to approach it would be to allow people to use the bathroom of their gender expression, and encourage everyone to mind their own business. And this would also mean that it would make sense to have uniform supplies in both bathrooms in case people's genitalia are different for whatever reason.

roses

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 7:35 pm

freilich wrote:

There really isn't any way for you to know what people have under their bathing suit. And the same was true fifty years ago before transgender rights were discussed. Also, since there is such a complex array of intersex conditions, it is highly possible that you have been swimming with people who are genetically male with outward female appearance, or with both male and female reproductive organs, or with boys who were surgically altered to be girls as newborns. That's just a fact. It's not something people advertise, so there really is no way for you or anyone to know anyone's complete gender makeup.

roses

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 7:45 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

There is a huge difference between not policing who gets to use which restroom and providing supplies that are for people with the anatomy of opposite gender.

In the scenario in which a transgender man needs to use the bathroom, what do you prefer.

Do you want him to use the women's bathroom because he was born with male genitalia? Or because he hasn't had surgery on his genitals? Do you want transgender men - who have male clothing, deep voices, Adams apples, and facial hair, to use the women's room with you and your female family members?

Or do you agree that he can choose to use the men's room, and that may be the most appropriate place for him? And if so, what should he do if he is menstruating and needs supplies? Should he go without supplies? And if so, what is the benefit or justification for him not having access to these supplies? Who is affected by the supplies being available? Is it fair to withhold needed sanitary supplies from people because of other people's conservative opinions?

shyshira

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 7:53 pm

roses wrote:

In the scenario in which a transgender man needs to use the bathroom, what do you prefer.

Do you want him to use the women's bathroom because he was born with male genitalia? Or because he hasn't had surgery on his genitals? Do you want transgender men - who have male clothing, deep voices, Adams apples, and facial hair, to use the women's room with you and your female family members?

Or do you agree that he can choose to use the men's room, and that may be the most appropriate place for him? And if so, what should he do it he is menstruating and needs supplies? Should he go without supplies? And if so, what is the benefit or justification for him not having access to these supplies? Who is affected by the supplies being available? Is it fair to withhold needed sanitary supplies from people because of people's conservative opinions?

Who ever is making these supplies available is affected.

Jeanette

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 8:17 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I don't think anyone should be mocked for their biological differences. I don't think that anyone should be mocked for being born in a body that doesn't feel right to them.

But I do think the ACLU should be careful in using its resources, and that includes good will. I don't think it's wise to complain about every inequity. It's not such a big deal to carry pads and tampons with you; most pad and tampon machines in bathrooms don't work anyway; and the vast majority of users of men's rooms don't need pads or tampons.

On the other hand, the Fox News article is sensational. It's not like the ACLU is just complaining about this. There are a bunch of menstruation-equity related issues that they are advocating. The first is dropping sales tax on menstruation-related items. That seems reasonable to me, and affects half of the population at some point in their lives. In contrast, menstruating men are a tiny fraction of the population, and it's no big deal to keep a tampon in your pocket. (It just occurred to me that presumably a menstruating man wouldn't carry a handbag. Well, let them put it in their backpack.)

This is a very well thought out post.

I also wonder how much of the gender/culture wars is due to LGBTQ trying to push their agenda of destroying traditional gender norms, and how much of it is scaremongering from the right. So often you hear stories on the RW media of what people on the left think or want or demand that is completely distorted.

Let's say 90% of LGBTQ just want to be free to live their own lives in peace, be able to go to the doctor when they need to without harrassment, be able to get jobs, rent apartments, etc. just like everyone else. But is there a minority that is motivated by an agenda?

The claim in the master cake shop is that they davka went after that bakery because they were conservative christians, when they could have bought a cake anywhere else. Should LGBTQ davka target the most conservative businesses and demand that their marriages be recognized? Is there room for negotiation and compromise? Can they say, look, we get that not everybody is holding there yet, and if they don't want to recognize gay marriage we shouldn't try to force them? Or is it an essential human right that they need to fight to preserve?

(I'm asking these questions, I don't have the answers.)

freilich

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 8:30 pm

roses wrote:

I don't think this is such a clear argument, because there are many people that, due to their intersex conditions, don't fit neatly into any one category. Not everyone is a man or a woman . Some people are both. Some people are none. Some people start as one when they are assigned at birth, but chromosomally they are the opposite s-x, and transition later. It's complicated.

To be clear I’m not discussing people who have this physical disorder. Which is very very rare. I’m talking about the people who are thinking that they are wired the wrong gender.

Are you implying that people can choose whatever they want? That definitely puts a different spin on the subject. Let’s say I have some needs. Can they be met? Say I have sensory issues and can’t handle being dressed. Which happens to be a real issue for some individuals. Does that allow me to walk out naked in the public??

Let’s say I have OCD. Does that allow me to go around spraying disinfectant onto others?

So while your right, people don’t fit into neat boxes in many aspects. Gender was and will always be determined clearly. I’m sorry to burst your bubble here. Ready for tomatoes here...

Last edited by freilich on Thu, Dec 19 2019, 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

pause

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 8:43 pm

Ok, I love how everyone is talking about my post and attaching various intents and purposes to it. I'm here. I'll clarify what I meant, and I'm quoting this post because the bolded highlights my point.

roses wrote:

If a trans male feels the need to use the men's bathroom, nobody is withholding sanitary needs from them. Heck, majority of public restrooms I've been to don't even have sanitary supplies in the women's restroom. I, as a female, don't have expectations that I am somehow ENTITLED to sanitary products in the bathroom. I make sure to be well supplied myself and for those emergencies, we women know how to use tissues until we can take a detour to the local pharmacy. The sense of entitlement of a minority of a minority of the population was the butt of my joke.

Similar to urinals in the ladies' room. Men don't NEED urinals to urinate; it's simply more convenient. Men can just as well use a sit-down toilet to urinate. (Can you imagine: they can even sit while urinating!) For a trans male to DEMAND sanitary supplies in the men's room is as outrageous as trans females demanding urinals in the ladies' room.

Last edited by pause on Thu, Dec 19 2019, 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

freilich

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 8:43 pm

roses wrote:

I don't believe that the widows response is coming from a place of "everything goes".

Christianity has a very strong emphasis on forgiveness, and it is considered a good thing to forgive someone who perpetrated a crime. There seems to be a heavily religious influence to the widow and her choice to express forgiveness. Its not a new, modern invention. It's actually a very ancient tradition.

Going back to the forgiveness aspect. I wonder if Christianity is such a forgiving religion, why after all these years are they not willing to forgive the Jews for killing there j$esus?

How many millions of us where killed in the name of their forgiving religion.

Again, this is not to G-d forbid mocking the widow. I’m just trying to bring out how crazy the world has come to. That is definitely coming from the idea that anything goes.

I remember reading a news story about a man that was almost killed, and how he said he forgives the assailant. That is anathema to the Torah. Let us not forget. Their is good and evil in the world. To forgive an evil crime doesn’t mean a person has rachamim. It means a person is simply living in denial. Whoever denies this is living in their own bubble.

chanatron1000

Thu, Dec 19 2019, 8:44 pm

roses wrote:

Do you want transgender men - who have male clothing, deep voices, Adams apples, and facial hair, to use the women's room with you and your female family members?

Sorry, but I can't see that as anything other than fearmongering meant to scare me into gender discrimination. And I don't think that male clothing, deep voices, Adam's apples or facial hair make someone a man, or that lacking them makes someone a woman. Why should it matter what gender someone is at all?