S/O Feminism | Imamother

imorethanamother

Sun, Jan 05 2020, 10:03 pm

I'm a proud feminist. I don't know if anyone realizes how much of their lives is so unbelievably defined by feminism, that we don't understand what life was without it. Much like my children don't understand life without cell phones and internet, or I understand life without electricity and running water.

Sarah Schenirer didn't have an easy road. Many, many highly regarded gedolim were against teaching women how to learn, how to read, how to know much of anything of our Torah. I went to a funeral of a woman who was so jealous because her brothers got to go to yeshiva, and she had to stay home, and she begged her father to teach her how to learn. So the very fact that you learned how to read a pasuk, that you even know what it says in the Torah, is something that for a very long time didn't even exist. It's shocking to most of us, because our reality is a reality where Sarah Schenirer succeeded.

My point is that without the rise of feminism, you might not even be Jewish today. You would know enough of the Torah based on what your mother taught you, and little else.

Your children would "belong" to your husband, no matter how abusive he was. Your house would belong to your husband, leaving you without a place to stay if he kicked you out. Your money would belong to him. Your body would belong to him. If you want to understand what feminism has brought you, feel free to hang out in Yemen to see how you would fare without women's rights.

THAT BEING SAID. I think that when a rabbi gets up and denounces feminism, it's hard to know what type of feminism he means. It's like someone saying, "I hate science!" What exactly are you referring to?

Feminism has many branches, and many second and third waves trying to achieve different ends. Once upon a time I took courses in these, but I forget most of their aims. But many are just ludicrous. Radical feminism thinks that carrying a child is like being enslaved, etc etc. There's a lot of LGBTQ agendas in feminist literature. And on the opposite end of the scale, our society will proclaim the oddest thing as "feminism". Strippers are feminist. harlots are feminist. Walking around naked is feminist. Being a female druglord is feminist. So when a Rabbi says, "Feminism will destroy our society!", they might be right, but not in the way most of us really think of feminism.

I, for one, think that feminism has a place in our society, and we should continue to push boundaries past what some patriarchal Rabbis believe. Like the sudden embrace of the halachic pre-nup, which charedi Rabbis used to hate, mostly because it originated in the MO spheres. But it's a feminist response to a patriarchal and untenable situation in modern day society. Also, women doing daf yomi. Women learning with chavrusahs. Women becoming yoatzot. Women going on boards of schools and shuls.

I think these are all positive steps to becoming a better society. Women have a lot to contribute, and we have a different way of seeing things that are essential for a more robust outcome. I think that there's a lot of fear of change, a lot of fear. I understand that the ones who fear feminism the most are the ones who are most insecure. As Gemara isn't scared of many different opinions coming to the truth, so we as a society shouldn't be scared of hearing as many voices as possible. And that, to me, is the definition of feminism.

gingertop

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 12:18 am

I really enjoyed this discussion. So many interesting perspectives- thanks Mommy8 for bringing it up.

Feminism has many downsides but overall, I'm glad we don't live the patriarchal societies that were dominant not too long ago.

There's a midrash that eventually the light of the moon will equal the light of the sun. We learnt this to be a mashal for women who will eventually take much more of an active role in society.

One of the things about being human beings is having discernment. It's ok to say there are things that feminism got wrong but there are benefits and saying something is feminist should not end the discussion.

malki2

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 1:51 am

I’m throwing out this question. Maybe it should be a spin-off.

Those of you who will be taking on to learn Daf Yomi are likely doing so with some degree of feminist spirit. Now you will certainly encounter in your journey through Shas halachot such as those that mention that a woman is acquired by a man in marriage and not vice versa. Also, what the woman acquires is automatically acquired by the man. Things like that. How do the feminists here deal with these halachot which are based in Torah? What is your reaction? Do you just accept that the Torah is “sexist” and move on? Then you have the fact that Hashem is referred to as “male” all over the place. Is that sexist? Could you really accuse Hashem of being “sexist” and unfair to women? Do you perhaps think of the eternal Torah as being a product of the times in which it was given? Or do you just accept these things as some sort of “inconvenient truth”? How do you guys deal with this stuff?

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 2:52 am

malki2 wrote:

Malki2, I believe you do not realize that most women who are considering or starting to do Daf Yomi have years of exposure to Gemara. Many have already taken Gemara courses or have gone to shiurim that are at a reasonably high level. We’ve long been exposed to the reality that the status of women is lower than that of men (e.g., women being acquired, women not testifying, etc.).

Of course each of us has her own way of dealing with the cognitive and spiritual dissonance resulting from such knowledge. But how can you, as a woman, possibly think that women won’t be exposed to this before learning Gemara? I had to deal with this in preschool, when the boys first got up to say shelo asani isha, and the girls then got up and said she’asani kirtzono. (Yes, they told us what it meant.) I remember in fifth grade the shock that I felt when I learned in Mishpatim that a father could sell his daughter into slavery, the horror that I felt at the midrash that I learned in second grade that Rivka was married when she was three years old to a middle-aged man. Obviously I didn’t know at six all that marriage entailed, but I knew enough about the social dynamics that I felt sick.

You don’t avoid all those concepts by not learning Gemara. Even learning Ein Yaakov, and even davening only brachos each morning, the way my grandmother was raised, exposes you to those concepts. Eventually all of us get to know an agunah, and we learn about the laws of gittin. We don’t need to pick up a copy of Gittin, or even to have read the relevant pasuk in Devarim, to recognize the inequity.

How did you, as a woman, deal with these realizations? Please share. Then please explain why it’s different if women learn Gemara.

I personally was very comforted when I learned Gemara, because I could see how complex issues were decided on differentiating features of a case, so that even rules that seemed unfair weren’t taken as universal rules without exception; because I could see part of the beautiful and intricate structure underlying the Halachic process; because the process of learning itself brought me closer to the Torah.

But you haven’t had the advantages of learning Gemara, so I’d be interested to hear how you deal with the apparent inequities.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 5:58 am

malki2 wrote:

I wasn't picking up the "anything you can do I can do better" vibe on the daf thread, though I'm sure there are women out there who are learning that way. I still remember a very sad blog from a Yeshivat Maharat student, who is supposed to be a lovely girl* according to those who know her, but it still made me want to barf, about how she and her chavruta would toss a quarter into a jar every time they came across something misogynistic.

But your questions could apply to those who learn Tanach and other sources in depth too. Maybe more so for gemara but it's not like we're not aware of this if we don't learn gemara.

*I'm not dissing her by calling her a girl. I'm calling her a girl because I'm old enough to be her mother. Would calling her "kid" have been better?

amother

Silver

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 6:01 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Her blog made you want to 'barf'? What a gross, immature word to use about a person.

And were they wrong? Are there not misogynistic passages in the Tanach? At least they found a creative way to deal with it.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 8:17 am

PinkFridge wrote:

The proper word is “student.” There are students of all ages at Yeshivat Maharat, some of them retired professionals, older than you or I. Also: You have mentioned iirc that you have grandchildren so your being old enough to be this student’s mother does not entail that she is a girl.

I think recognizing and dealing with the way women are disrespected in many ways in Judaism is a hard process. It occupied me for at least a quarter century after I started preschool. Each of us has her own way of dealing with it. I agree with you that someone who is going to take on the role of religious leader should not be publicly showing anger. I have not read the blog, but from the impression I now have — while I wouldn’t barf, I also wouldn’t want to hire her.

Orchid

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 1:36 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

I don’t particularly identify with the feminist “movement,” but I don’t understand people - especially women - being against the concept of feminism, itself - which as I’ve heard it explained, is the radical notion that women are people too.

I think many people today don’t understand that without feminism, we would not be allowed to vote, attend colleges/universities, hold well-paying jobs outside the home, be able to open our own bank accounts, have our own credit cards, own our own property. . . The list is endless. . . We owe a debt of gratitude to feminism for many (most?) of the rights and freedoms that we take for granted today, and I (for one) am grateful.

Your second point will not resonate with anyone against whatever modern-day feminism is. I oppose government unions today, but I do value the fact that 120 years ago they were necessary and helped form the safe environment we have at work today. But I'm not a slave to history and therefore don't have to approve of them today just because I benefit from the ones created 100 years ago. Sometimes a movement, while necessary at the time, outlives its original purpose.

I'm glad early feminism enables me to do all you write above. No 'anti-feminist' thinks otherwise (ie, is upset that they have the right to vote/own property/open a bank account, etc.) Feminism has morphed into something else and I'm not a hypocrite for not being a proponent of modern day feminism just because I benefited from early feminism.

In other words, you have to sell modern day feminism on its own merits rather than what it has accomplished 50 years ago.

amother

Indigo

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 1:48 pm

malki2 wrote:

The Gemara is way LESS sexist than the rest of the world was at the time. Eg for the rest of the world before the Torah, really it was ok to just rape a woman and abandon her. Comes the Torah and says- No! You can't do that. If you want physical pleasure , even once, from a woman you must agree to support her for the REST OF HER LIFE. You must give her physical pleasure whenever SHE desires it. And you can't divorce her without paying her her Gett.

This was men putting restrictions on THEMSELVES for the benefit of women. It is incorrect to compare those days with these days. Compare woman's position in the world in the times of the Gemara with women's position in the JEWISH world at the times of Gemara and you will see how forward thinking and PRO women Chazal actually were.

gingertop

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 1:48 pm

Orchid wrote:

Your second point will not resonate with anyone against whatever modern-day feminism is. I oppose government unions today, but I do value the fact that 120 years ago they were necessary and helped form the safe environment we have at work today today. But I'm not a slave to history and therefore don't have to approve of them today just because they I benefit from the ones created 100 years ago. Sometimes a movement, while necessary at the time, outlives its original purpose.

I'm glad early feminism enables me to do all you write above. No 'anti-feminist' thinks otherwise (ie, is upset that they have the right to vote/own property/open a bank account, etc.) Feminism has morphed into something else and I'm not a hypocrite for not being a proponent of modern day feminism just because I benefited from early feminism.

In other words, you have to sell modern day feminism on its own merits rather than what it has accomplished 50 years ago.

This is a good point in general but in frum discussions specifically, sometimes a frum woman says she wants to do X (a career/ a learning choice/ whatever) and she gets criticized for X being feminist- she's obviously just trying to be like men, she's taking away from the men (?) and all that.

So she can either deny she's a feminist based on today's feminism or decide that feminism has changed her worldview enough that yes, she's somewhat of a feminist and that's not necessarily a bad thing. These discussions and intracommunal accusations rarely touch on modern day feminism. It's more about telling women that they're really trying to outdo the men, they're really not doing what an isha ksheira is supposed to. It's not about s-xual liberation or misandry or wherever modern feminism is at.

The accusation is more confused than the defense. Women get called feminists for doing things that they would find personally enriching and the accusation comes with all the loaded associations of modern day feminism when it's just the good old-fashioned type. It's fair to say that feminism as a buzzword is not enough to make something taboo, especially where the discussion is about the type of rights that the original feminists fought for.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 1:50 pm

gingertop wrote:

Excellent post.

Let's try to differentiate, then - what parts of modern-day feminism do you think ARE necessary and are not contradictory to Torah?

The question is genuine, since I think I've internally resisted the label "feminist" because of some of my family members' radical feminist views, yet I also believe that women's status and roles within the Jewish community need to be expanded.

Orchid

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 1:55 pm

gingertop wrote:

Excellent post and I agree with every word. In fact, I think most of us agree on everything.

What I find off-putting about modern day feminism is the strong anti-male sentiment. The #believe-all-women blah blah. I mean, why? I have sons and I would want them to be believed as much as I would want my daughters. Not more, not less. Equally.

gingertop

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 2:06 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I don't identify as a feminist so I don't know. I just have my own thoughts about the world and how I live in it. Extreme patriarchy makes me cringe. I grew up in a rather misogynistic environment. Didn't rebel against that specifically- there were too many other things to unlearn- but I just came to peace with my own place. My husband is also extremely not-rigid. If it makes sense for us, we do it, if not, not, but he doesn't care so much about what everyone is doing. He's much frummer than me so it's great that he has that flexible personality.

I do what I want to do unless there is a halachic reason not to. For example, about learning gemara- which is where this thread spun off of- I'm not advocating for a complete change of communal norms, but I don't think that the religion which produced people like Bruria has to worry about a shnuck like me learning a bit and hopefully expanding my appreciation of the Torah. I'm not a feminist (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that) if learning enriches my avodas Hashem more than reading another novel or baking another cake.

I would love if there were more options for women in general because in many things we are just as capable and being left out for no reason other than "this is how it always was" and by "always" we mean the last 100 years. I don't think women having expanded opportunities is nearly as anti-Torah as some people think.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 2:10 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

Perhaps I should have phrased it more gently. Or maybe I should have said, bringing such sheer hubris into one's learning the holy words of people infinitely greater than anyone alive, and just about anyone alive for generations, made me want to toss my cookies.

ETA: Silver, I assume you're one of the 5 (so far) people who liked the post after mine. I'd love to hear from the others, and the poster.

ETA again: I should have said blog post, instead of condemning the whole blog, which I haven't seen.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Jan 06 2020, 2:15 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Fuchsia

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 2:12 pm

gingertop wrote:

I don't identify as a feminist so I don't know. I just have my own thoughts about the world and how I live in it. Extreme patriarchy makes me cringe. I grew up in a rather misogynistic environment. Didn't rebel against that specifically- there were too many other things to unlearn- but I just came to peace with my own place. My husband is also extremely not-rigid. If it makes sense for us, we do it, if not, not, but he doesn't care so much about what everyone is doing. He's much frummer than me so it's great that he has that flexible personality.

I do what I want to do unless there is a halachic reason not to. For example, about learning gemara- which is where this thread spun off of- I'm not advocating for a complete change of communal norms, but I don't think that the religion which produced people like Bruria has to worry about a shmuck like me learning a bit and hopefully expanding my appreciation of the Torah. I'm not a feminist (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that) if learning enriches my avodas Hashem more than reading another novel or baking another cake.

I would love if there were more options for women in general because in many things we are just as capable and being left out for no reason other than "this is how it always was" and by "always" we mean the last 100 years. I don't think women having expanded opportunities is nearly as anti-Torah as some people think.

Regarding gm the learning why not choose something like Halacha to learn,Chumash Rashi, pirkei avos all these stuff are amazing I learned in school Megillah if I had time I would learn that none of these are men’s learning no one would think your trying to compete. Verses when someone wants to learn Gemara I feel there’s so much more to learn but they chose the mans learning to compete.

gingertop

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 2:14 pm

Orchid wrote:

100%. Every word of this. Which is why feminism works as a slur today- some of the rubbish today is indeed ridiculous and harmful. And which is why it's silly for accusers to use the modern day connotation against someone who expressed no disdain of any men, and who just wants to do something that is halachically permissible and even has (perhaps limited) mesorah.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 2:14 pm

gingertop wrote:

I do what I want to do unless there is a halachic reason not to. For example, about learning gemara- which is where this thread spun off of- I'm not advocating for a complete change of communal norms, but I don't think that the religion which produced people like Bruria has to worry about a shmuck like me learning a bit and hopefully expanding my appreciation of the Torah. I'm not a feminist (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that) if learning enriches my avodas Hashem more than reading another novel or baking another cake.

I would love if there were more options for women in general because in many things we are .

Those are the operative words, IMO.

gingertop

Mon, Jan 06 2020, 2:28 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

Gemara is not the only thing I learn or want to learn. It's not one or the other. I keep saying that this is not time off of me davening or doing chessed or cooking supper. It's time that I would be wasting (hi, why am I still here? ) I have learnt with my husband different things that interested me including parsha , hilchos shabbos, and mesilas yesharim and chovos halevavos - shaar habitachon. I've also had years when I went to shul regularly and have restarted recently so I'm pretty up do date with at least the basics of each parsha and haftorah.

Daf yomi is in the air now- everyone in my life is all enthused with the new cycle, and so am I. I'm not committing to this enough to be a major advocate : ) . Someone else can step in and give better reasons than I have.

I have time, this interests me and is set up in a structured system that will keep me motivated (I hope) and enriched (I believe). It's not more complicated than that : )