Showing more than a tefach of hair

amother

Red

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 7:39 pm

Smokey,
I am having technical difficulties quoting you, but I am talking to you.

I am not now, nor would I ever C"VS poke fun at Torah or Gedolim. I am referring to amothers who have poles up their behinds. OP did not ask for your psak or your judgement. She asked for people who cover a certain way (not you, we all already know that you are superior to them) to share their experiences, thought processes, and feelings.

amother

Sienna

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 7:40 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Not quite but nice try. Maybe you choose not to understand the Halacha.

"nice try"? lol you don't even know my hair covering status, whether I cover every scrap, leave off a tefach, don't cover at all, or have no hair and go around bald.

And yes, I think there is a very good chance you misunderstood the gadol. Im with BetsyTacy. That's what I learned too. And what's the likelihood it was from the same source.

BTW, you should be reported for writing as obnoxious is that. Got to wonder what you choose not to understand.

PinkFridge

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 7:57 pm

OP, as a yeshivish type, the concept of kalta was new to me.
I don't quite get what you're asking. Do you want to know mekoros so you'll feel comfortable doing it? Or maybe because of where you spend your working hours or other, you're feeling uncomfortable and would like to move to covering more? Other?
What about talking to your rav/rebbetzin to bounce things off of?

I'd take my hat off to you, but...well, never mind Wink

Last edited by PinkFridge on Tue, Feb 04 2020, 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 8:24 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

I think you have to be an extremely honest person to allow yourself to do something you feel is wrong.

I’m not here to give my advice on hair covering or anything else.

But most people, afaik, don’t feel guilty about what they do. No one wants to live with guilt. It’s easier to justify and to find good explanations. So I do find your honesty admirable.

You’ll get many responses here, from “no hair should show” to “you don’t have to cover to hair”. But from what I sense, you’re not looking for that. You have an internal sense of what feels right and it doesn’t have to line up with what others believe.

Personally, if I wasn’t up to doing something I felt was right, I’d be honest with myself and Hashem and say “at this point, I can do xyz. I won’t live with the guilt, but when I’m ready I’ll go ahead with what I feel is right.”

Thank you for your kindness and words of encouragement Heart

amother

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 8:25 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

I have no answer for you, not being part of the MO crowd, but I just want to say that I think you're extremely brave and honest with yourself for even thinking about this and questioning whether what you do is right! Regardless of what you end up deciding, already the fact that you're a thinking person puts you miles ahead of many, many, MANY people I know who just do things because 'everyone else does them.'

Thank you so much--I still have a lot to figure out and I really do appreciate your encouragement.

amother

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 8:28 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

I heard directly from a gadol in person, that a woman who covers less than a tefach might as well not cover at all. If you care about doing the right thing, then do so. Obviously it’s bothering you because your yetser Tov is trying to convince you to do what you know is right. Hearing from other people who also do wrong, why they did it-won’t help you. Two wrongs won’t ever make a right.

I think your comment about the Yetser Tov is very interesting--thank you for your perspective.

amother

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 8:48 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Hi!

So I grew up "yeshivish", but I think we secretly weren't all that yeshivish. We saw movies occasionally and weren't wearing tights or anything, but we attended yeshivish schools and my mother always covered her hair. All of it.

When I got married, I assumed I would too, but somehow when it came down to it, I couldn't bear to do so. So I started pushing boundaries. First, taking out all my hair in the front of my wigs, so it didn't look so wiggy. Then, I started also wearing a triangulated bandana as a mock "tichel" to work and around. Then a baseball cap with my hair down. At times, I just disregarded that, too.

I knew it wasn't great, and my parents weren't super pleased, but they figured it was between me and my husband. And he was understanding.

I designated shul as a Must-Shaitel zone, although with hair out. What changed is that I moved somewhere ultra-frum where it wasn't accepted to do these kinds of things. And then one day I really needed Hashem's help on a difficult matter, and I told Him that my korban is my hair, and I will cover it, even downstairs in my house. So now I'm careful to do so, and it was really hard for me, but baruch Hashem I was helped in that particular matter.

It might be your age. I don't judge you at all - it's hard to be newly married and your hair is such a part of our identity. The older I get, the more I realize I actually look loads better in a wig, so that helps too! Your hair thins, you don't have to get it highlighted as often, and you know what? I look stupid in a baseball hat and a bandana! Lol.

Life is a journey. Small steps gets you to your destination. I wish you luck!

This was honestly such a wonderful comment to read--thank you so much, Sapphire. I really do appreciate your sharing your experience with me, I think I needed to hear from someone who started where I am; it really is inspiring to me.

amother

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 8:50 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I think a lot of it has to do with how you were raised and the people around you. It's not simple to be taught something and know it is true, but to also see many people around you do something different. Especially if it's most people, or most of your friends or the people you consider to be like you.

IME, as someone who started out very MO and moved to the right to the border of JPF/yeshivish, when something started making sense to me, I got scared, because I would usually take it on within a year or less. This happened with not wearing pants, with being shomer negiah, kol isha, etc. I had a group of honest growers as friends, which helped a lot. When I didn't, I didn't make changes. I kept the thoughts as theoretical. It can be hard to step out of something you've been doing and make a change; people will ask, maybe dh will ask. Even if they are being nice about it, you will nees to not just do but feel a nees to explain, and maybe justify. You worry they may feel judged, that it may be awkward.

Maybe this isn't you, and it's truly about what you think you can handle. But I find that it's what others may say that keeps us from trying to do something.

Thank you very much--I feel myself also moving to the right, and am feeling the same sense of discomfort or insecurity that you're describing. Thank you very much for your encouragement, it really does mean a lot Heart

amother

Wheat

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 9:12 pm

I'm not sure how helpful my view would be to you, OP.

I was raised MO lite (I.e. my parents didn't know too much halacha).

We spent a summer in EY & the buses went through frum neighborhoods, and I began to feel uncomfortable being dressed in a way that was inappropriate to them.

The next year in college I met up with people who had gone to the right and I admired them a lot.

A couple of years later & I was married to a kollel husband. I still don't entirely conform in some cultural ways, but when I learned a halacha I pretty much just did it. Although as time goes on & I see my family taking on the machmir view on many things, I say I am okay with sitting in Gan Eden with those (RW) Rabbonim who pasken l'kulah.

(In my circles it's supposed to be assur to have any hair showing - I think that's al pi kabbalah, though, not me'ikar hadin. I do my best but I must admit sometimes there's a wee bit of slippage. Though I usually always check before I answer the door. My view is "lo nitna Torah l'malachei hashareis" and I don't believe I am mechuyav to have my hair covering so tight that I get headaches etc...)

amother

Smokey

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 10:45 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

Sorry but you did poke fun at daas Torah which means you made fun of Torah, no way around it. It wasn’t my psak or judgment, it was a direct quote I heard in person from a gadol. Your agenda is clear. Don’t shoot the messenger.

PinkFridge

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 10:48 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

(BTW, I should mention that I've heard of kalta but maybe the first time within the last ten years.)
This move to the right is interesting. Is it manifesting in other ways? Not that there's anything wrong with that ;-D But yeah, hair covering is a big thing. You might hold onto a number of different hashkafos but might feel more comfortable covering more. It sounds like you might be moving into more RWMO, again, nothing wrong with that but some paradigms might be changing. I don't know what the conversation is on the MO board but you might get some good insight if you start a thread there.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Tue, Feb 04 2020, 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Brunette

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 10:49 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

No one poked fun at the gadol. You didn’t quote his name. You just came here to give an uncalled for psak. And yes, unfortunately many gedolim say things that are not quite aligned with the torah. I wouldn’t have said anything if you mentioned his name though, even if I’d think he was absolutely in the wrong.

I’m just saying that that comment was not ok.

amother

Smokey

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 10:51 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

That’s your opinion. I find your attempt to silence someone trying to give daas Torah I heard in person not ok. OP appreciated it so you should ask yourself why it bothers you so much but I’m sure I know why