Showing more than a tefach of hair

amother

Lilac

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 10:54 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Sorry but you did poke fun at daas Torah which means you made fun of Torah, no way around it. It wasn’t my psak or judgment, it was a direct quote I heard in person from a gadol. Your agenda is clear. Don’t shoot the messenger.

You didn't even name the godol. And besides, not everything a Rav or Rosh Yeshivah says is meant to be taken literally, I know this absolutely from experience. And I'm sure he would not be pleased (whoever the godol is) for you to repeat what he said in this context. If he's really a godol.

I'm a very yeshivish woman, btw.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 10:57 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

That’s your opinion. I find your attempt to silence someone trying to give daas Torah I heard in person not ok. OP appreciated it so you should ask yourself why it bothers you so much but I’m sure I know why

There are many rabbonim who say you don’t have to cover all of your hair. And yet you’re discrediting them. You’re essentially saying that these rabbonim don’t know Halacha and are making people sin. So you’re no different. Different rabbonim hold differently. But to tell someone her efforts mean nothing, and it’s as if she isn’t trying at all, isn’t ok.

And OP was being nice to you.

And yes, I’m sure you know why. I’m sure you can read my mind through cyberspace.

Good night.

amother

Smokey

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 11:37 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Women’s hair is erva. No way around it. Any rabbi who says not is wrong.

amother

Smokey

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 11:38 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

You make lots of (wrong) assumptions. He said it in a Shiur in front of a large group of women.

There’s no other way to take what he said but literally. But you can keep trying,

Still maintain your position?

amother

Silver

Tue, Feb 04 2020, 11:45 pm

This is how I feel as someone who covers some of her hair- I'm not saying it’s the truth or anyone has to agree with me, or that this is the opinion of my Rav or of modern orthodoxy- just explaining my position since op asked. I don’t understand the mitzvah at all and find it offensive and oppressive and I’m not sure it’s really a “ mitzvah” but more of a relic of what was considered basic modesty . Nowadays I wear something on my head as a siman that I’m a Jewish married woman, not because I think my hair is erva. I do not think my hair is erva and do not cover it at home even in front of men. This was not meant as an instructive post, just an explanation.

amother

Mustard

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 12:00 am

Dear OP
I hear your wish to fulfill this mitzva properly. The only way to know is to ask a Rav.

My Rav says entire hair must be covered. So for me, to do this mitzva, I cover everything. If I would leave hair exposed, it would be half a mitzva and whats the point to that. Keeping half of shabbos or half of kashrus or half of tzedaka isnt an option for me. I am not perfect but I like to be thorough.

Kabala teaches that covering the hair properly brings down many many blessings on a household. I see it as both my responsibility and my privilege. No one else can bring down these brochos for my children in this way, besides me.

That is me.
For you, you need to ask a Rav.

amother

Red

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 12:06 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

That was really beautiful.

notshanarishona

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 12:08 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

I heard directly from a gadol in person, that a woman who covers less than a tefach might as well not cover at all. If you care about doing the right thing, then do so. Obviously it’s bothering you because your yetser Tov is trying to convince you to do what you know is right. Hearing from other people who also do wrong, why they did it-won’t help you. Two wrongs won’t ever make a right.

Shivim panim latorah. Some rabanim hold own way , others hold another way . There is no such a thing as my rabbi hold this way so it's like that for all of clal yisroel. Everyone person should ask their rav what to do and follow the minhagim of their community .
And yes I also believe that we need to fully cover but that doesn't make every rabbi who holds otherwise wrong .

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 12:53 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

Hi! I don't know if doing something like this can be called a "mitzvah" either. And yes, I think that the culture of hair covering has mutated into something much different than the original intent. But I think it's a necessary compromise that has helped women feel beautiful and able to keep the mitzvah. I think you sound like a thoughtful person. I disagree that covering hair is considered "offensive and oppressive", considering that basically every celebrity wears wigs these days and most of the Jewish women in wigs I know look pretty glamorous, especially with all the wig innovations they have these days. I mean, most of the posts on imamother seem to rail against how great women look these days in natural-looking wigs, which look better than their own hair, and how it makes no sense.

That being said, you can't just say that a woman's hair isn't "erva". It says it straight out in Berachos, in the daf. I know because my husband was listening to a daf yomi shiur at home and I started listening in when it got to the good stuff. Rav Sheishes says that a woman's hair is erva, as well as her thigh and her voice. It's not exactly about what you "think" is erva when the gemara says exactly otherwise.

BadTichelDay

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 2:21 am

Just my own experience: I've been struggling with the "right amount" of hair covering for most of my married life, about 10 years. I always wanted to cover to some degree but I'm also always tempted to show part of my hair. My community is no great help because it is very diverse - from a small decorative stripe to full cover, anything goes. The Rav of our yishuv is in favor of full cover and considers up to a tefach as bediavad. He's opposed to sheitals. Most women are less strict and wear scarves, tichels or half-covers and show some hair, ranging from a tefach to a meter (kind of). Some are machmir and cover everything. Dh doesn't mind either way and leaves it up to me.
So, I'm forever torn between halacha and my own desire to look nicer. Over the years, I have fluctuated the whole spectrum between full to half cover.
Whenever I covered less, I felt guilty about it. *
For now, I've settled for big poofy scarves with a 1-2 fingers wide rim of hair showing above my forehead. It is clearly less than a tefach and in line with Rav Ovadya Yosef זצ"ל 's psak. While we are not Sefardim, it's still someone big to rely on.

Edit: * Whenever I showed lots of hair, I felt bad before Hashem and had the feeling that it was blocking my spiritual growth. It made me feel like a hypocrite - reading frum books and learning and davening yes, but hair cover no - it didn't fit together. Inside and outside have to be on the same page at least to some degree, else there is some inner tension. I hope that makes sense to others.

Last edited by BadTichelDay on Wed, Feb 05 2020, 2:37 am; edited 2 times in total

tichellady

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 2:23 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

So do you think that you can’t talk in front of a man because your voice is erva? If hair is erva then why does the marital status of the hair matter

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 7:01 am

avrahamama wrote:

I wish we weren't so concerned with whether or not we were moving to the right of left but moving up. This right, left, modox, right wing, yeshivish, etc. It feels like lateral thinking. Flat.

I really hope that any kabala (in mitzvot or hashkafot) I take on just moves me up. Closer to my source. Please Hashem for all of us.

Actually, I think lateral isn't a bad way of looking at things. It grants chashivus to different but authentic derachim. If say, we are Litvish but a child becomes chassidishe it's not moving up and discrediting her roots but making a lateral move. And for chassidish people who need breathing room this is might also be a good way of looking at things.

In this case though, the OP does want to take on a different level of observance, and she might find that in some ways she's moving up. I think this is something that will be very helpful for OP to hash out.

avrahamama

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 7:42 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Good point PF. Thanks for that. You're right. I suppose I'm concerned about all the labels and limitations we give ourselves. Life is constricted as it is. Do you know about Twisted Parenting? There was recently such a nice story called the "The Hat" you reminded me of that.

OP nothing you do is permanent when it comes to this mitzvah. Try a few things out. See how they feel. When I was experimenting with my tzniut I did it on Shabbat, Mondays, Thursdays, YT, and RC. It was my way of dipping my toes in.

Be careful that you only share your thoughts with friends that are blessed with a true listening ear and compassionate heart.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 8:22 am

I skipped straight to the end, to avoid the drama.

Everyone has something they struggle with. G-d knows men have enough struggles.

Some women are dressed totally tzniut al pi halalcha, but gossip about the neighbors.
Some yell and hit their kids when they are frustrated.
Some wear their skirts just a millimeter below the knees.
Some sneak onto the phone on Shabbos.
Some fantasize about their boss or ex boyfriend.

It's not for anyone to say what is worse, or who is going to hell in a hand basket.

All I can say, is that if you want chizzuk, daven to Hashem that you should have the strength to find a solution that gives you peace of mind, and that you feel like you can do what you think is right with a joyful attitude.

Our struggles are real, and nobody gets an easy pass. It's what inspires personal growth. If you were doing everything perfectly, you would be very stagnant (and no one else would be able to relate to you!)

amother

Blue

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 8:27 am

I've been hesitating to comment because of the vitriol, but maybe this perspective will help some understand? I recommend the book Hide and Seek: Jewish Women and Hair Covering for a non-judgmental read about different women's experiences with hair covering. I'm a BT in a liberal MO community, and I wasn't sure what I would do when I married. I did some reading on it, but obviously the topic is loaded and (I think) pretty community-dependent, and I wasn't totally satisfied with the sources on the subject for full covering, but I felt that there is still a basis for covering as a sign of marriage and modesty.

I ended up wearing hats most of the time when I'm out and not covering at home, because it seems to fit a suitable level of modesty for me right now. Most women in my community do not cover except for shabbos. I don't believe Judaism is all or nothing.

saw50st8

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 8:44 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Hello everyone—I’ve been struggling with my level of hair covering and would love people’s thoughts about this.

I’m MO and since I’ve been married I’ve been covering a “kalta” of my hair. And I know other women who cover this much hair or less (some where headbands, etc. or half-tichel).

I’ve really been struggling with why I do this. I know that by Halacha this is not enough of a kisui rosh. Are there any women who also do this level of covering, and if so, how do you personally explain it?

My problem might sound silly because I’ve already said that halachically I know that this is wrong, so the answer is obviously then to do what I know is halachically right, to show no more than a tefach of my hair.

However, I would like to hear from other women who cover their hair in this more lenient way that I described—I would honestly like to know if you, like me, also struggle with why you do it this way.

Really I would love to hear from anyone who has anything to say about this topic and this problem—I’ve only been married for a year now so my habits aren’t set and I’m open to learn more and receive your guidance. Thank you

I'm MO but I don't cover my hair, so maybe I am not the person that you are looking for an answer from.

There are many different valid halachic opinions on what and how much you have to cover. Wearing a head covering is a perfectly acceptable halachic opinion.

Do you have a Rabbi that you ask questions to?

If you want to cover more, what's the problem? I live in a MO community where anything goes regarding headcovering and my friends range from no cover, a head covering, just a tefach showing, full sheitel, mitpachat etc...