LWMO Wedding | Imamother

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 11:24 am

My sister is hopefully getting engaged shortly, and the wedding plan negotiations have begun in earnest. I am hoping to help my mother through this, as a lot of it will be very emotionally difficult for her.
My family is basically chofetz Chaim type yeshivish, on the less yeshivish end of that particular group. My sister is now firmly MO, and somewhere in the middle of that spectrum in certain ways, but not in others. She does only wear skirts but they are pretty short, short-sleeves, low cut neckline, etc. She is very into learning and Halacha as SHE understands it, and is uber-feminist.
She is also extremely money-savvy and hates to see money being thrown at social convention. So anything she seems as not halachically required and is just “what’s done” seems to her to be a big waste of money, if it’s something she does not particularly desire at her wedding. She is 23, financially independent, and would have just paid for it herself to have it her own way and save many thousand of (my parents’) dollars, but her boyfriend is opposed to doing that because obviously they would have other use for that money.

So it comes as a surprise to no one that there are two vastly different visions for this wedding.

I told my mother they should have a conversation where my sister describes her dream wedding and my mother can then go through the list and see what she can tolerate, ask shaila about what my parents feel is assur, and decide what parts would really make them feel humiliated. That way they can hash it out once instead of a series of fights. But I don’t know if my mom has the courage to do that yet - or at all.

I am hoping to run interference on both sides and keep the tensions down. I have been doing so already to some success, but I need more information. I am looking for some differences that anyone has experienced or can imagine at a LWMO wedding as opposed to a standard yeshivish one. I know that some things will be differences in social norms as opposed to a halachic difference and that is where I’m hoping to get the most compromise from my parents. Also some things are her own mishigas (not specifying to protect her identity, but it is outlandish to the point where it’s not a culture thing, it’s a “she’s weird” thing), and some just cuz she things it’s a waste of money.

Thus far, she mentioned that she wants a woman reading the kesuba because a woman cannot halachically read the brachos but the kesuba is ok.
They are talking about having a family pet walk down the aisle.
Her gown will likely not be an issue because they will go to gemachs only (this is where the frugal thing helps) so there will be limited options for things my mother would find overly revealing.
She wants buffet style (my DH loooooves this idea) and really wants milchig
She wants no centerpieces.
She really wants outdoors but is aware that that may make logistics much more difficult.

Things I anticipate to be an issue: music, possible mixed dancing (later on?). Kissing under the chuppa. Couples dance. Women making speeches.

But I really can’t come up with more even though I know there will be things. I have been to MO weddings but not too many and I wasn’t looking at them from this angle.

Any suggestions as to what else might come up would be extremely helpful.

Elfrida

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 11:48 am

What kind of mechitza will probably also come up. She may want a lower than normal mechitza, or one with breaks in it. I have seen a mechitza made of potted palms, which was actually rather pretty - but it defined separate spaces rather than blocking vision.

Mixed seating of course.

If the family pet does come, make sure one person is exclusively responsible for it, and for getting it out of the way afterwards. Potential allergies among the guests may be a good arguement against this one. If there is to be loud music, the pet may bot be very happy.

Quote:

She wants buffet style (my DH loooooves this idea) and really wants milchig
She wants no centerpieces.
She really wants outdoors but is aware that that may make logistics much more difficult.

These really are a matter of social convention rather than halacha. In Israel I've been to chareidi outdoor weddings, weddings with buffets, and without centerpieces. Meat is more normal.for a wedding, but not a halachic requirement. I wouldn't waste too much energy worrying about them. Prioritize the arguments that are really important.

iyar

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 12:02 pm

Has the couple chosen a Rabbi to be mesader kiddushin? If you're lucky you can get him to suggest things that are halachically necessary. I'm thinking along the lines of the actual chuppah / kiddushin, separate dancing, mechitza (at least during dancing?), but I can't tell you what has to be done or comment on any of that because I'm no rabbi. If he's willing to step in and comment on those things that'll take some of the burden off your parents. It's so not worth stressing over the centerpieces or the menu or having a pet in attendance. Some of the guests might find any of the above outlandish or refreshingly different or fun or meh. Who cares. Enjoy the simcha! Mazel Tov!

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 12:08 pm

I am RWMO, and my wedding really looked no different than a yeshivish wedding except that we had mixed seating at the meal.

My family is LWMO so I have been to many such weddings. During the chuppah, I have never seen anything straight up against halacha. They do tend to incorporate something to give women more of a role- such as the bride saying something (usually Ani l'dodi v'dodi li) or, as mentioned above, having a woman read the ketuba- which is not a halachik matter. The ketubah is read as a break between kiddushin and nissuin, it's not a part of the ceremony. The only thing that matters with the ketuba is that the chatan gives it to the kallah. In terms of giving him a ring, she will either do it in the yichud room, or right before Im eshkachech, when the kiddishin and nissuin have been concluded.

In terms of the party, there will be secular music and mixed dancing, but usually the first round of dancing will be all Jewish dancing, with a mechitza that gets moved out of the way between dances.

I think you need to tread carefully here. If it's really offensive to your mom, so she doesn't have to pay for it, but she should think about if this is really worth fighting over. Your sister is marrying a Jew in a fully halachik manner. Not worth making a stink over the details.

amother

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 12:56 pm

Wow, thank you all!

To clarify: I am the one telling my mom that if it’s not a halachic issue she should pick her battles veeeerrry carefully. The problem is that my mom is worried she will be mortified because 90% of our family is at least as yeshivish as is if not more, not to mention the chassidish contingent. So I’m trying to calm her down.
On the other side, my sister is a really good, sensitive person. She doesn’t want to upset my parents... but it’s her wedding.

Regarding the animal - it’s a super unusual pet. And they want it to walk down the aisle. I straight-up told her she’s making a mockery of the event (she did specifically ask for my opinion on it).

My parents are planning to talk to the mesader kedushin. But they don’t know what to expect from him because they don’t know him and have no clue where he is on the spectrum of MO Rabbis.

I have been telling my mother that it’s going to come down to “is it worth it?”. That she wants to preserve the relationship. But I am telling my sister the same thing. I really don’t mind being in the middle here (I may come to rue the day I said this), because each side respects me and my opinion as understanding of both sides.

amother

Denim

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 1:05 pm

Consult a Rav instead of judgmental cyber yentas.

I would consider myself central MO and a lot of what I am hearing here is sounding absurd. If you are not a posek and are not familiar with LWMO wedding (not that you were at one and thought it was a freak show, but it is actually the circle you travel), do not assume you know what others will be doing. I went to a coworker's reformed wedding. That does not make me an expert.

Whether your parents or their rav consider mixed seating against Halacha, I cannot tell you. My Rabbi has had our family, along with another family, over for a Shabbos meal, where we all sat at one table.

essie14

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 1:06 pm

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

I have been to many LWMO weddings.

A lot of things OP mentioned have nothing to do with halacha.
Centerpieces. Dairy instead of meat.
Pet walking down the aisle.
Who cares? Let her have what she wants. As others have mentioned, if she chooses an orthodox rabbi, the rabbi will probably tell her when she can give him a ring, for example.
Reading the ketuba is not halachic at all. As one rabbi once told me, you can read the scores from last night's Yankees game. You just need a separation between the 2 parts of the wedding.
For certain reasons, we did not have our ketuba read at our wedding. Our mesader kiddushin just sort of summarized it. Our wedding was 100% kosher.

A kiss after the chuppah. you may not be comfortable with it but as far as I know that's not assur.
Women can say things under the chuppah they just cant say the actual brachot. I've been to more than one wedding where they called up couples and the man said the bracha and the woman translated it or something.

We added the tefilah for tzahal, read by family members who have served in the IDF. Many people were in tears. It was beautiful.

Mixed seating- 100% done even in RWMO circles.
Many many weddings I attend have the mechitza removed during the dancing. Rabbis have still been present and I never saw any objections.

I agree, your parents have every right not to pay for things they dont want to, but everyone should attend this wedding joyfully.
Intermarriages are far more problematic than 2 jews marrying each other in an orthodox ceremony.

amother

Teal

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 1:10 pm

Quote:

Regarding the animal - it’s a super unusual pet. And they want it to walk down the aisle. I straight-up told her she’s making a mockery of the event (she did specifically ask for my opinion on it).

Someone has to handle the animal. If it is that unusual, it will probably mean a family member or a very close friend handling it, because they are the only ones who will be familiar enough with it to handle it. Then they'll have to miss part of the wedding afterwards to take it home, which is rather a pity.

It is unusual enough to be scary to some of the guests? A snake coiling its way down the aisle would not go down well!

And anything big could be rather intimidating.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 1:15 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Quote:

I’m as afraid of animals as the next person but this dog will LEASHED. I can’t imagjne it will invoke fear and cannot be compared to a snake coiling down the aisle

FranticFrummie

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 1:30 pm

I'm dying to know what this unusual pet is. I love animals of all types, but I'm concerned about how the creature will react to crowds and noise. (I'm also a bit disappointed that we're not talking about a 10 foot reticulated python.) Is this a Miami wedding? Will there be alligators?

Honestly, I'd rather have an alligator at my wedding (with a handler), than have mixed dancing and no mechitza.

Centerpieces can be a waste of money, and it makes it hard to see and talk to the person across the table from you. Instead, pick a favorite charity and put tzedaka boxes in the center. Let every person decide how much or little they want to put in for the zechus of the new couple. I did that for DD's bas mitzva, and it was lovely. She raised money for guide dog training in Israel.