Women going to coed gym?

amother

Black

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:07 am

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

so its basically about control? its prohibited in general, but if you askk totty for permission, he'll let. cool.

You want to read it negatively, go ahead.
Their belief is that internet is not a good thing, and they advise against it.
Someone feels they need it, you discuss your concerns, and are told that if you feel you need it, take it.
I do the same with my kids. We have houserules. one kids feels something is not working for them, we discuss.

Odelyah

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:09 am

But perhaps an even bigger issue than the lack of clarity and honesty with regard to teaching halacha, is the lack of teaching the fundamentals of emunah. Even if you teach halacha properly if you have children who are very smart, curious, and/or non-conformists, then even if they understand the halacha, they will not see any reason to follow it other than not hurting their family and losing their ties to their community, if they have not been taught the rational basis of our belief in Torah and why it is different than other religions. Hence the double lives. It makes total sense and I have tremendous respect that the people doing it don't want to hurt their parents and are able to retain the parts of their lifestyle that they still value. But again, it makes me sad because I would hope with a better education many people would make different choices and live a more inspired Torah life.

amother

Beige

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:09 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

Chassidish? I don't think so, but maybe her chasidish rav does allow it.
Frum, yes. Did you ask her rabbi?

I'm 100% sure that you will not find a single chassidish rav that allows a women to uncover her hair in a co ed gym.

amother

Lemon

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:10 am

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

As a "chassidish" woman,
and I use quotations bec. I know I'm not chassidish. But people tend to still call anyone that is born / married into chassidishism is chassidish. as if women cant have thier own beleifs. That or OTD. Nothing in between in many minds.

Just realize that they are chassidish women who drink starbucks, go to coed gyms, go to the beach in bathing suits, and have to live their life like their communities decide or else their kids will be kicked out of institutions, their parents may cut ties with them.

Stop with your skank eye. Trust me s omeone with a bathing suit in miami and a shaved head, didn't shave her head bec. she likes it that way.

Peace out.

If so - and I believe you on that - then why on earth are they comfortable doing this is a place where half the frum world is vacationing? Aren't they afraid someone will see and tell. Even photograph them? Something doesn't add up.

amother

Beige

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:12 am

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

so its basically about control? its prohibited in general, but if you askk totty for permission, he'll let. cool.

It's about having a moreh derech & following daas torah.
I'm sorry you're so bitter and burnt. I do not feel as if anyone is trying to control my life. And whenever we're in a dilemma and undecided about certain things, we don't hesitate to ask daas torah for guidance. It feels much better to do what we do with guidance and daas torah.
A good Rav doesn't pasken for everyone the same. He paskens according to your family & individual situation.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:13 am

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Why such people would send to chassidish schools is beyond me. They obviously don't belong there, they're hippocrates.
And what exactly is wrong with drinking starbucks?????

Yeah, being Chassidish and wearing a bathing suit is a known cause of becoming an ancient Greek physician, and there are as of yet no Chassidish medical schools.

amother

Black

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:15 am

Odelyah wrote:

I think responsibility lies with parents for this. It's very hard for schools to cater to individuals in a class of 30, with every other kid coming from a different place.
As a parent, I don't depend on the school for vital issues. I know its just too much to expect.

amother

Teal

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:24 am

The rest of the frum world would like to know why the " chassidim" rebels don't move groups. Yeshivish, jpf, mo, lwmo are all very accepting and have rabbis who will be the right fit for you. If its no good for you why is it good for your kids? You clearly aren't a chassid so why not rid your life of that falsehood / 2 faced ness. What's the real reason? I think if you'd explain we are capable of understanding, after all some of us left our former boxes too. It comes across particularly bad ( hypocrit but you don't get to wear a sign explaining whats beneath all this) if one sees swimwear at the beach with lange payis and turbans.

Odelyah

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:25 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

It's halacha, not that chumros and minhagim and mixed into it. The Chassidish poskim pasken differently. So it's not the way you say it is at all.

in psak halacha there are more machmir opinions. I agree that chassidim follow machmir opinions in many areas but if someone is struggling in a certain area it is still helpful to know that there are other more maikel non-chassidish halachic opinions, rather than just think they are a hopeless oisvarf and they shouldn't bother even trying to keep the more maikel non chassidish standard in that area.

So maybe you are saying then these people have to decide to not be chassidish? And find a new yeshivish or MO community or whatever or move OOT? But they want to remain part of their community. I would guess that there are wise chassidish rabbanim that if someone would go to them privately and say I want to remain part of my chassidus but certain things are very hard for me, they would privately allow them to follow certain non chassidish kulos and remain in the fold, if they weigh their personal situation and feel that is what's best for them and their family.

amother

Navy

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:30 am

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

dh and I are not on the same page on this. I never wear a turban with a bathing suit.. doesn't go together.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:31 am

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Your comment is based on the mistaken assumption that Chassidim who don't follow all the rules are rebelling against Chassidus. The reason those people don't move groups is because they strongly identify with Chassidus and with the Chassidish lifestyle. It's ironically against the spirit of Chassidus to tell people they can't be Chassidish unless they are 100% compliant.

amother

Black

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:33 am

Odelyah wrote:

So maybe you are saying then these people have to decide to not be chassidish? And find a new yeshivish or MO community or whatever or move OOT? But they want to remain part of their community. I would guess that there are wise chassidish rabbanim that if someone would go to them privately and say I want to remain part of my chassidus but certain things are very hard for me, they would privately allow them to follow certain non chassidish kulos and remain in the fold, if they weigh their personal situation and feel that is what's best for them and their family.

This is what is described by amother Beige.
And if a wife or husband is very learned, they can go through things on their own as well. There are many shaalos u'tshuva seforim that can point one in specific directions.
However, not everyone is interested. They just say all rabbis are bad. I'm gonna do whatever I want to do. I was repressed my whole life and blame every single person around me...and Shabbat Shalom. The End.
It can also be complicated, as Navy pointed out, that spouses are not on the same page. I find that incredibly sad for both partners. I think that in those cases, both can give a little and coexist and even love each other deeply.
I know such people.
But some people are too rigid for that (on both sides of the aisle) and things can turn ugly really quickly.

Odelyah

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:33 am

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

I'm 100% sure that you will not find a single chassidish rav that allows a women to uncover her hair in a co ed gym.

yes but there may be MO one who would. I know a very highly respected litvish/heimish kallah teacher who is endorsed by very yeshivish and chasidish poskim, who will on rare occasions tell someone to ask a certain MO rav for a certain heter because they have very extenuating circumstances and she feels they really need it.

amother

Navy

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:36 am

Odelyah wrote:

Actually I once asked a Modern Orthdox rav about someone who was raised eating only cholov yisroel, starting to have chalav stam. and he said "I cant' answer your question". so there. I assume that wouldl pertain to many other questions I'd set forth to a modern orthodox rabbi.

tigerwife

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:38 am

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

I hate the turn this thread has taken but please- do you really think only the chassidish world is judgmental? A reality for most chassidim who leave is that they can never get rid of their chassidish label- they’ll be labeled as OTD or “tuna bagel”, not necessarily as someone who found a new derech a better fit. I can’t comment on what living a double life does to an individual, but as for the rest of the community, why do you insist they must leave their family and friends as well? So many people sin but we can only change ourselves. Try to focus on the good. Which chassidish rebbe was it who saw a wagon driver davening while changing his horse’s shoes, and instead of ranting about kavod tefila, commented “How wonderful Hashem’s children are, thinking of Hashem even while doing the mundane like changing horseshoes?”.

Odelyah

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:45 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

right, and this is where the teaching emuna and inspiration come in. If someone only is turned off from all the rules and extremism without a solid foundation of emuna why should anyone but a very passive, rule-following type person want to keep it all going? Why would they want to bother even learning the halacha if it's all probably a bunch of rules some rabbis made up (ch"v). Why would I want to learn the more lenient opinion made up rules? Why would I ask any shailos? I'll just do what I need to do to get by in my community and privately do whatever makes sense to me, and try to go on vacations to get a breather when I can and try not to go crazy. Sad

asmileaday

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:48 am

tigerwife wrote:

I've seen this over and over, even on Imamother... making fun of them and calling them "ex-chassidim".

tigerwife

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:54 am

Odelyah wrote:

I’m with you and I think this issue is across the board. My theory is that there is so much focus on peer pressure and keeping up the right image, basically caring more about what the community thinks than what Hashem thinks. Once you realize that you actually don’t care what other people think, and there is no foundation for a relationship with Hashem, then what’s left?

amother

Blonde

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:56 am

asmileaday wrote:

I've seen this over and over, even on Imamother... making fun of them and calling them "ex-chassidim".

I am very chasidish and when I see men and boys with jeans and t-shirt wearing their chasidish peyos, I am full of admiration.
Peyos among yemenites are called simanim - they are showing to the world "I am a jew"

Ahavas yisroel, posters.
Ahavas yisroel, posters.

(Sometimes I think Imamother was invented to bash chasidim.)

asmileaday

Mon, Feb 10 2020, 11:57 am

Odelyah wrote:

...snip

So maybe you are saying then these people have to decide to not be chassidish? And find a new yeshivish or MO community or whatever or move OOT? But they want to remain part of their community. I would guess that there are wise chassidish rabbanim that if someone would go to them privately and say I want to remain part of my chassidus but certain things are very hard for me, they would privately allow them to follow certain non chassidish kulos and remain in the fold, if they weigh their personal situation and feel that is what's best for them and their family.

Look what happened to R' Shmiel Neiman...
Although ironically I think that kol koireh backfired and he's now more popular than ever.

I think a big misconception (which admittedly happens in all groups) is linking together every type of chassidish person under 1 main umbrella.
Assuming that the lady in the turban and bathing suit is the same as the lady that is 100% frum but doesn't look chassidish yet her boys wear long krazildige (curly) peyos. Calling them all hypocrites. And so on. It's just wrong.
Everyone has different beliefs and does different actions. Some may be hypocrites. Many are not.