Hope were doing the right thing

amother

Thu, Apr 02 2020, 11:13 pm

My mother n law is nebech an almuna . She always always have her grandkids and children over . Its never been quiet there. Now dc go less of course. Here and there someone pops in to ask how she is . Now, she really wants us over for passach , she keeps saying that her food is all ready , she cooked so much and she is expecting us. My dh feels that the right thing is for us to go. Of course just if we stay well and healthy with hashems help. My mnl is not a person that will stay on her own , and I have the least kids so it makes most sense for us to go. She has a very spacious big house so its not that we need to squeeze into a small apartment. Im still nervous to go somehow . My mil claims she prays everyday and she has emuna. My husband also did things for zchisim . After all we cant leave her alone , she is not this type of person to not make a big deal by staying home . It will mean the world for her if we go. What would u do?

Teomima

Thu, Apr 02 2020, 11:21 pm

I wouldn't go. Sorry. I think the situation is extreme enough that unless you're prepared to risk her life, you need to stay home. And you need to have a frank discussion with her and all the siblings.

The right thing to do these days is live as if you're already infected, and that anyone you come into contact with you could potentially infect. If that person is at risk (elderly, immunocompromised, etc) then you risk their lives.

It's horrible, yes. But it's one year. Be"h there will be many more opportunities to spend Seder together in the future.

amother

Bisque

Thu, Apr 02 2020, 11:36 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Rabbanim have made it very clear that this year kibud horim means staying home.

That you sacrifice this year's Pesach so that you can celebrate many more holidays with her.

It's not even a question. You can do Zoom before the seder and have your kids sing Mah Nishtanah and share divrei Torah, they can be dressed in y"t clothes and sing with her chad gadya. It's not going to be the same as in real time but it is something.

Please don't risk her life. Your kids may have it and be fully asymptomatic and you may be too.

Zchisim are nice but Hashem wants us all to do our hishtadlus, He expects us to listen to rabbanim and doctors and not rely on zchisim. Even Avraham Avinu did not want to rely on zchisim, he wasn't sure he had enough and didn't want to use them all up at once.

Please, stay home, for your sake, for hers, for the sake of the entire community.

amother

Wine

Thu, Apr 02 2020, 11:43 pm

My mother is also an almana and always had a few children over each y"t. But she is taking this very seriously. We really didn't know what to advise her bc. we know how hard it is for her to be all alone, yet nobody wanted to take the achrayis of either coming to her or offering to host her. A few siblings did invite her if she really wanted to come, but she was too afraid. She decided on her own to stay home, and ask a neighbor to keep their door open by the sedarim, and she'll keep her door open, so she could basicly follow along with their seder.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Apr 02 2020, 11:45 pm

Most people will tell you not to go.

But Ill be very honest. A little over two weeks ago we made a bar mitzva, my family and friends came. It was right before the official quarantine, and it was less than 50 ppl. My FIL insisted on coming (over 75) and some elderly rabbis also joined. None of the people that were there, got sick. OTOH my friend that didnt leave her house for weeks, got so sick...

My husband works in the food line, is constantly exposed. His bosses had the virus, bh the workers didnt...go figure.
I personally dont know if we are doing the right by quarantining. Im going along with it, but I have my doubts if we are accomplishing anything. It may just slow the virus, or the virus may just last this season, regardless of what you do. Soaping and sterilizing is a good idea all year long, and social distancing is not bad. (That I can back off peoples breath, without offending anyone)

I feel bad that these elderly people have noone.
It is so sad, that can kill them more than the virus!

I would explain to her the risk by having you over with kids...and if she truly insists, I would oblige. People are going to be mad at me for saying this.

ora_43

Thu, Apr 02 2020, 11:47 pm

Completely isolating is the ideal.

I'd start by trying to explain to both her and your dh just how serious the situation is. Coming from a position of, you love her so much that you can't bear the thought that one of you might harm her by giving her the virus.

If she absolutely can't/won't be alone, then (AS FAR AS I KNOW, ask a doctor to be sure) it would be much safer for her if just 1-2 children or older grandchildren (old enough to be very careful about virus transmission) go and stay with her. As in, live with her temporarily, so that there's no risk of them catching the virus somewhere else and bringing it to her. "Here and there someone pops in" is just about the most dangerous possible approach. Especially if you mean that both your kids and her other grandkids (your in-laws/nieces/nephews) pop in.

I'm not sure how safe it would be to start doing that at this point, though. The infection rate is already very high in a lot of places. Even if just one person goes, in some places there's a 30-40% chance that any given person has the virus.

Is there anyone in the family who's already had the virus and is now recovered who could go stay with her? Or someone who has been completely isolated for a minimum of two weeks?

Just so it's completely clear, I don't advise the above. Even just that is very risky at this point.

But it's less risky than what you're doing right now, and less risky than what you're considering doing.

In any case, run your plans past a doctor (and rabbi).

ora_43

Thu, Apr 02 2020, 11:55 pm

As for "if we stay well and healthy" - you will have no idea if you're sick; that's the whole problem. People can spread the virus several days before they start feeling sick.

If there is any chance at all of getting her to listen, I'd go that route. She needs to fully understand that anyone in her extended family could be sick without knowing it, that if she invites someone with the virus over it's extremely likely that she'll get sick, and that the hospitals are currently beyond overwhelmed and that if she does get sick, she may not get good treatment.

I hate the thought of scaring her like that, but she really needs to understand how serious the issue is. Otherwise the choice to invite you all over isn't a real choice.

In any case, I wouldn't take the whole family over. At the very most, I'd put your husband into a complete quarantine from now until Pesach - and keep in mind that won't be enough, you need a 2-week quarantine to really know if you're sick - and have him and only him go do the seder for her.

ETA - with apologies for all the posts... Have you considered asking for a heter to do a "group" seder online? Yes, there are rabbis giving heterim for this right now, in extreme situations like the one you describe. You turn the video stream on before chag and have it going for a few hours so that everyone can see each other and talk.

I know it sounds like that can't possibly be allowed, but keep in mind that risking someone's life is even worse than using electricity on chag.

Last edited by ora_43 on Fri, Apr 03 2020, 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Fri, Apr 03 2020, 12:05 am

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

A little over two weeks ago we made a bar mitzva,

A little over two weeks ago, the number of people infected was under one-tenth of what it is now. It would be dangerous to assume the risks are the same now as they were then.

Quote:

I feel bad that these elderly people have noone.
It is so sad, that can kill them more than the virus!

Long-term, maybe. If you were talking a full year of isolation vs. catching the virus under ideal conditions, with first-world medical care.

Short-term, I can't say as I know the odds of dying from spending one Pesach alone for certain, but I doubt it's as high as 2% - the odds of dying under ideal conditions, for a woman age 60-70 - let alone as high as it might be specifically right now with (in many many places) a severely understaffed and underequipped medical system.

If a specific individual is in extreme psychological distress, or if the choices are between one risk and a much higher risk, that might be an exception. But in general, it is much much riskier to visit an elderly person right now than for them to suffer 3-4 weeks of isolation (and I'm saying that with a lot of respect for how devastating even 3-4 weeks of isolation can be).

FranticFrummie

Fri, Apr 03 2020, 3:33 am

OP, I agree with all of the above.

I want to validate that this must be extremely painful for everyone. Your MIL sounds like a very special person.

Can you record a video of everyone sending her Passover greetings, and send it to her? Let the kids talk as much as they want, share what they've been making in school for crafts, a little dvar Torah from the older kids, anything that will help her share in the spirit of the Chag.

Tell her how much you love her and miss her, and how you can't wait until you can all be safely together again. She can watch it over and over, and hopefully will feel less alone.

Of course it's a poor substitute, but it will let her know that you care.

Studious

Fri, Apr 03 2020, 4:44 am

We are having the same issue here. My mother in law is completely refusing to stay by herself for Pesach. So she’s going to my sister in law’s. She and her husband haven’t left their apartment in two weeks. Still makes me nervous. I was talking to my friend who is a social worker about it. She says that some elderly people are ambivalent about living, because of the loneliness of the Coronavirus. It’s not like they actively want to die, but they take unreasonable risks. Very sad.

amother

Fri, Apr 03 2020, 5:00 am

My MIL isnt gna stay alone in million years. Its not the crafts, the online ,ect SHE DOES NOT WANNA BE BY HERSELF. She has to know someone is in the house with her . This week she is going to be spending by her daughter over shabbos, (a house full of kids)
She has everysingle day 1 granddaughter that sleeps with her , (coming from a big family) I dont know if she is in denial but doesnt wanna take NO for an answer. If we are not ending up going , someone else will have to go be with her . I onow its q very tough situation. We will have to contact our ruv and discuss it.

ora_43

Fri, Apr 03 2020, 5:19 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

For the one who had asked if anyone had have the vires already , ive heared from one of the doctors that the vires can come back . Its not that u can only have it once . Its very contagious and can be reexposed.

All of the options you're talking about are risky.

But sending one person who's already recovered is at least less risky than what you're currently doing.

If your MIL is spending Shabbat with her daughter, then the safest thing (again, relative to a range of options that are all unsafe) is that she do Pesach with the same daughter.

The idea is to at least make the number of families she's exposed to as small as possible.

I hope that when you say she has one granddaughter every day, it's the same granddaughter? Or at least from the same family?

amother

Magenta

Fri, Apr 03 2020, 5:25 am

My neighbor is spending pesach alone. It breaks my heart

I think the only safe option is someone can go to her who tested postivivw (doesn’t just think they have it) and it a full 7 days since symptoms.

However if she is running around anyways and not self isolating then getting together for Yom Tov doesn’t make that big of a diff.