Halachik Psak for Tuition during School Closure

amother

Thu, May 07 2020, 6:04 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Maybe it depends what town you live in but I know for me-in lakewood, lots of people are saying that the rabanim woud never come out with a psak because they'd never start up wtih the schools.

What?

I don't get this.

Don't the school administrators want to run their schools according to halacha?

Demanding payment that is not owed to you is gezel - robbery.

It is very nice for parents to pay more than they owe, and I personally am paying full tuition, but the school can only charge what is halachically owed. Fear of financial ruin never justifies stealing.

amother

Coffee

Thu, May 07 2020, 6:07 pm

[quote="amother [ OP ]"]Many of my friends who have 3 year olds say that the Zoom/teleconferences are more of a hindrance than a help, and that the projects require parental input. They signed their 3-year-old up for childcare, and entertainment and projects are only secondary to that.

Can you change a 2-year-old's diaper over Zoom? Can you take a 3-year-old to the bathroom over Zoom? Can you help calm her tantrum? I don't think so. The parents need to do all that now.

Did you ask the parents if they feel that what you are offering is an adequate substitute for the childcare that they signed up for at the beginning of the year?

My 2.5 year old's Morah asked us parents, as soon as playgroup closed, if we are interested in Zoom conferences and projects. None of us were. So she closed up shop and applied for unemployment right then and there. She's doing great, with a higher income than usual due to the extra $600 per week. My 2.5 year old is also doing great, enjoying snacktime, lunchtime, playtime, and a nice long nap. That's a win-win situation.

My point is that playgroup Morahs/schools are not providing the services that parents signed up for, at least not fully. Halachically, there must be some psak as to how much payment they owe.[/quot

I have gotten nothing but rave reviews and glowing praise from the parents of MY playgroup. I guess the kind of clientele I attract is looking for more than a babysitter so they are happy with what I offer. In fact, I have multiple siblings - younger and OLDER who join in our Zoom lessons. I even have children from other programs that closed joining in. I would love to quit and make more money but I have an achrayus to my students and their parents. Lest you forget, we did not CHOOSE this situation. I can only do my best to rise to the challenge presented to me and by the feedback I have received it does seem that I have succeeded bH. And I did lower my price by half even though, like you said, I could make much more money sitting back and collecting unemployment. NOT MY STYLE

amother

Powderblue

Thu, May 07 2020, 6:12 pm

What I'm seeing from this is that parents consider school to be offering TWO services:
1) Childcare/socialization
2) Education/entertainment

Schools seem to consider the first service negligible (which may also explain why they don't seem to care when they plan vacations at times when parents are not off work, make hours that are not meeting parents' needs, and don't step in appropriately for bullying situations).

So in the school's mind, if they are providing education (even though parents may argue that it is incomparable to in-person education), they are entitled to full tuition.

Parents rightly feel that service #1 is not being offered at all, and service #2 is being offered at a lower level than previously. (I mean, if you really think that 3 hour-long sessions provide the same level of education as an 8-hour school day, then why do you waste so much time in school, on our dime?)

An additional factor is, of course, that many of the school's costs are fixed - building upkeep, salaries, etc. - and that they can't really fundraise as usual at this time. They rely on tuition payments to stay afloat. Which essentially means that the schools are requiring parents to donate (non-tax-deductible and at significant amounts) for the sake of the continuity of the school.

It's not an easy situation, but it's not terribly fair for parents, who are the consumers here.

amother

Aqua

Thu, May 07 2020, 6:59 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't get it either but think about it.

the Lakewood rabanim came out wtih a psak about playgroups/babysitters before pesach already and then another updated one last week. they never said a word about schools. why not??

and the letter I got from my kids school made no mention of them asking a rav, or anything to do with halacha. just fact that you need to pay and they understand if you can't pay immediately.

amother

Fri, May 08 2020, 7:25 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I have gotten nothing but rave reviews and glowing praise from the parents of MY playgroup. I guess the kind of clientele I attract is looking for more than a babysitter so they are happy with what I offer. In fact, I have multiple siblings - younger and OLDER who join in our Zoom lessons. I even have children from other programs that closed joining in. I would love to quit and make more money but I have an achrayus to my students and their parents. Lest you forget, we did not CHOOSE this situation. I can only do my best to rise to the challenge presented to me and by the feedback I have received it does seem that I have succeeded bH. And I did lower my price by half even though, like you said, I could make much more money sitting back and collecting unemployment. NOT MY STYLE

If the parents of your playgroup are happy with what you're doing and feel that they are getting (partial) service, that's great, and by all means you can charge the partial pay.

In many cases, however, playgroup Morahs haven't asked the parents for input. And that's why I'm hearing so much resentment from mothers. "She didn't even ask me if I want this Zoom conference. Now I need to spend an hour sitting next to my active 3-year-old to make sure he doesn't shut off the laptop or throw it to the floor, and to encourage him to participate so the Morah doesn't feel bad. Then I need to sit with the projects and basically do them for him. And then I spend the rest of the morning playing with him, giving him snacks and lunch, dealing with his tantrums and needs - and the Morah think she deserves the full pay! I appreciate that the Morah is working hard for the conferences and the projects, but why didn't she ask ME if it works for me? She can't change the terms of the contract on her own and then expect full payment."

amother

Fri, May 08 2020, 7:29 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

And as far as a psak, please read my original post - I DID get one!

In your case, was the psak based on the fact that the parents feel that the partial services you were going to offer would be helpful to them?

My sister's 2.5 year old's Morah is doing teleconferences and sending home projects. Needless to say my 2.5 year old niece drops the phone after 30 seconds. The Morah says she asked a posek and the parents should pay full, but parents can feel free to ask their own rav. So my brother-in-law called up the posek that the Morah had quoted to verify the psak. The posek denied having given an unequivocal psak on the matter - how could he know that the Morah can charge full, without consulting the parents and seeing if the replacement service is acceptable for them?

Simple1

Fri, May 08 2020, 7:38 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

A 2 and 3 year old doesn't need conferences like a 10 year old does. They can play with toys, watch mommy cook etc .

mommy3b2c

Fri, May 08 2020, 7:39 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I am a playgroup morah. When we closed in March, I asked a shailah about April. The Rav I consulted is a major posek, nationally recognized by klal yisroel. Since I did not ask permission I don't feel comfortable publicizing his name on this forum, although the parents in my group do know. I told him all that I am offering (hour and half of zoom, projects) and told me to ask for full payment but if any parents have a problem with that, we should ask a posek TOGETHER. One parent asked me if she could pay half and I said yes, no need to ask another shailah because I was mevater. The other parents paid in full. The parents were told this in the beginning of the month. For May, I did not ask a shailah I just asked for half which the parents were very happy about, although I cut down the Zoom to 1 hour due to the lower payments. I could easily stop working but I feel I have an obligation to my students. The children love my Zoom classes and the arts and crafts packets I prepare on a bi-weekly basis for them to do at home. I think I am more than fair and frankly, I don't understand a "community psak" as Choshen mishpat questions should be asked by both parties, TOGETHER and from what I understand, not all playgroups are offering much to their students. Why should I get paid the same as someone who is doing a fraction of the work?

So because they are only paying half now, you are only doing one hour zoom? You do realize that the parents signed up for childcare for about 5 hours a day. Now you are providing entertainment, not childcare, for one hour a day and you think it’s fair for them to pay half? I really have no words...
If I sent to your playgroup I would just take my child out. I don’t need your zoom or your projects.

amother

Coffee

Fri, May 08 2020, 8:34 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The psak I got was to ASK for FULL payment for April. And to ask a rav TOGETHER if anyone objected. Only one parent asked to pay less and I agreed without further ado. For May I did not ask a shailah I offered half price on my own which the parents were thrilled with. We all understand that I could just quit and leave them all with nothing but that I am extending myself as a COURTESY. These children are 3-4 years old. I run a very structured program with meticulously prepared lesson plans and educational goals. Perhaps that is why the parents are grateful to me, not resentful. I am not a babysitting service, never was. I am charging HALF. And as far as the 2.5 year old, I have several siblings of that age and younger participating in my Zoom classes too.

amother

Coffee

Fri, May 08 2020, 8:37 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Clearly, my clientele is of a different sort. BH I have gotten raving praise and much hakaras hatov from the parents of my group.

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, May 08 2020, 9:46 am

This thread is so disappointing. I’m coming from a school administration perspective. Do you really think the schools are out to make money on you? Where I live the schools put every penny they have to enhance your child’s education. No one is making any money. Yes the staff is getting paid their salaries but the higher ups? They go out there and fund raise and work tirelessly to be able to pay their bills without making a dime! They’re doing unpaid work for the sake of the klal! And of course they ask a psak Halacha on this matter! They are in chinuch and every single decision goes along with their daas Torah! You all make it sound like schools are greedy businessmen looking to make a buck on you.
We personally asked a psak what to do about tuition and were told the parents should be asked to pay full tuition but if a parent is going through a more difficult time financially now we should work with them. Which is what we always do anyways!

You must realize fundraising is down the drain right now- and that is where most of the school finances come from. Tuition does not cover the cost of your child’s education. The schools are struggling and will fall apart if theres no money.

This thread is very sad.

imamommy613

Fri, May 08 2020, 10:20 am

Honestly I’m really confused why parents still have to pay. Most of us lost our jobs and filed unemployment, why can’t teachers and office staff do the same? For those of us who are currently struggling to put bread on the table, how does it make sense for us to support the Yeshivahs? Yeshivahs get a lot of government help and teachers are getting unemployment $.
Before corona I sent my children to Yeshivah and paid for their service of taking care of my kids while I am at work. What am I paying for now? 45 min of teleconference?
Really not fair that rebbeim are saying we still have to pay....

solo

Fri, May 08 2020, 10:21 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

This thread is so disappointing. I’m coming from a school administration perspective...

Schools are struggling. Along with most other industries and households. leaving everybody uncertain and in a tight spot. Which is why people are turning to Rabanim to understand what Halacha requires of us at this time. I don’t think that’s unreasonable and I’m not sure why that is offensive or disappointing to anyone. Personally I find it so comforting that we have rabanim Halacha and mesorah to lean on in these frightening confusing and anxious times

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, May 08 2020, 10:28 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I understand your viewpoint, but can I return the question to you? Do you really the parents are out to take advantage of the situation? So many are struggling financially right now and need to restructure their finances to stabilize their situation.

This isn't a one-sided struggle. Both the parents and the schools are struggling right now, and it isn't fair to just weigh the implications on only one end. There needs to be some sort of compromise and adjustments to account for the current situation.