Women are usually bad?

iluvy

Mon, May 11 2020, 4:52 pm

CiCi wrote:

Yoy, please! You are nitpicking! You are wearing the glasses of a liberal feminist.

The bottom line is that halacha does not dictate that a wife do something that doesn't make sense or so for all practical purposes it's not like his word is the end all or be all...

You can find sources saying that the husband should listen to his wife. You are really cherry picking here.

How is she nitpicking? Admittedly, I am a liberal feminist (who attended Bais Yaakov and supported my husband in kollel), but surely any Hebrew or English speaker can tell the difference between "speak nicely to her" and "conduct all her actions according to his words." That is the bottom line.

Unless, of course, you can find sources saying a husband should live in fear of his wife and treat her orders like those of an officer or king.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 5:10 pm

WADR. I think I am done with this thread. Despite the fact that this thread was started in response to actual statements, which the OP has cited, and despite the fact that I have in all cases (in this thread and others) responded respectfully and to the point, I have repeatedly been subjected to ad hominem attacks on my character and attitude, while my specific questions/points have not been addressed. Obviously, this is hitting a nerve with some people, and I am not looking to discomfort anybody.

Malki2 - I have reached out to you, because you seem to be intelligent and knowledgeable, so I assumed you have seen (at least most of) the sources I have seen, and I had hoped you could provide an alternative/positive interpretation/outlook. (That is why I resurrected the Derache’ha Darchei No’am thread, as well.) if you want to continue this conversation (respectfully and to the point) on the Derache’ha Darchei No’am thread, I will respond there.

Aylat - I love your comments (here and in other threads). I love that you take the time to research and think about what you are learning. I’m sure we’ll interact on other threads.

Imorethanamother - I appreciate your comments on this/and other threads, as well.

CiCi

Mon, May 11 2020, 5:27 pm

iluvy wrote:

And where do you see it say the wife should live in fear? Does any God-fearing halacha-following wife live in fear?

*A wife can live in fear of an abusive husband which in this case he's transgressing numerous halachas. And the reverse can happen as well. It has nothing to do with Torah, halacha and what our Rabbis held and everything to do with middos (and sometimes mental illness).

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 5:34 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I appreciate the reaching out. The truth is that this thread began with a question about Tefilin which I gave considerable time to and which believe that I answered satisfactory in the end. I did not want to get carried away in a rehash of our earlier debate. I do understand your issue with the cognitive dissonance, but at the end of the day, I don’t believe that I will convince you out of that. I think that you are looking for, and that you think that I am claiming that, modern, Western values of equality with which you and I were raised are found in the Torah, and I am not doing that, nor do I believe that they are found there, at least not in their entirety. Likewise I don’t think that modern, Western values consider the man to be the head and leader of the household, at least not in 2020, although they may have in 1950. Just as modern, Western society has completely blurred the lines between men and women to the point that they can be completely interchangeable. Just cut off or add an appendage and there you have it. The minds and the emotions work exactly the same. If I don’t show you that the Talmud says that women can do everything that men can, or if I don’t show you that everything written about a husband vis-a-vis the wife is written the same as the wife vis-a-vis the husband, it will not fit your understanding of דרכי נעם, and you will not be satisfied. So I will not, and you will not, and that’s that.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 5:47 pm

malki2 wrote:

Since I take it you are not replying to the other thread, I’ll give one more reply, and then we both can quit this conversation.

Just want to point out, that you have still not explained how you see and/or deal with things. You have just put words into my mouth (assumed things, which I did not say) and then announced that you cannot answer what I did not say, since you already know that I will think/feel the way you assume I already think/feel . . . Again, I say to you, that your answer is a cop-out, but I guess that (sadly) we’re done.

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 5:55 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I’m not sure where you missed my answer. But my basic point is that lack of equality does not equal lack of respect. So yes, I am aware that the Rambam and Gemara both say אל יטיל אימה יתירה, this does signify lack of equality if you define equality as being completely equal terms for both genders. It does not signify lack of respect. It also means different things in different societies, and I will not be able to explain it to you in the context of your personal viewpoint that is causing you to have the cognitive dissonance (in your words).

CiCi

Mon, May 11 2020, 6:03 pm

malki2 wrote:

I don't see it as lack of equality. I see it as differences of our tafkid. Could you imagine how women would complain if in addition to taking care of children we'd have to run out three times a day to daven with a minyan? Give me a break. They are kechtzing because the secular world has lost the understanding of gender differences and our different roles and they are being jolted back to reality back through halacha. We are different, our duties are different, but we are equal. I don't feel less than my husband and I don't believe anyone with a healthy marriage feels that way either.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 11 2020, 6:15 pm

CiCi wrote:

I think so too.
Especially because a lot has to do with the times. In olden days women were more subservient to men in the gentile world, so that was the ‘derech ha’olam’.
And derech haolam affects Jews.
What’s the difference between a German Jew and a French Jew and an American Jew or Israeli Jew? It’s the Gentile part (aka: mentality) that differentiates them.
BUT: The TORAH commanded that in every generation one may not pasken from seforim alone but one must listen to the LIVE CHACHOMIM of THAT generation who Pasken based on the Torah together with derech haolam.
And Gd decides for each generation what derech haolam should be.
Believe me, Gd knows about feminism.
Maybe he created it because Bais din lost its power to protect women. (Bais din used to keep men in line). I don’t know, I’m just a simple person. But it’s a known fact that everything Gd does is for the Jews.
בראשית ברא אלוקים- הכל בשביל ישראל שניקראו ראשית.
Bottom line, today Rabbonim don’t say that women should be subservient , bow down or be scared and afraid of their husbands.
I’m not sure how they used to interpret it bec I didn’t live in those times, and it’s clear that even in those times Rabbonim said one must honour his wife. There’s only one way to translate ״אוקיר״.
But today for sure all Rabbonim I know are extremely respectful to women and also teach husbands to do the same and that a husband must make sure that his wife is comfortable in her home, and the Bracha in the home comes from the woman etc.
(״אין הברכה מצויה בתוך ביתו של אדם אלא בשביל אשתו״ בבא מציעא נ״ט) somehow this doesn’t add up along with being petrified of your husband. One needs Rabbonim to explain these eternal words of wisdom of chazal, you can’t pasken just on face value literal meaning. And as I said, Rabbonim don’t pasken in a derogatory way at all, at least not the ones I know.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 11 2020, 6:27 pm

CiCi wrote:

Exactly if I manage a quick shacharis and mincha I feel like a million dollars.
There’s no way I’d be able to do what I do if I was obligated in all the mitzvos my husband has. Just no way. We’d probably have one child and maybe two parakeets.
And even then, who would watch that one kid while I sit all holy in shul? While I learn?
It would be a serious contradiction to pru urvu.
But of course, I don’t know the reasons, so I won’t play Gd.
This is how Gd designed His world and he knows best what’s best for all of us.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 11 2020, 6:36 pm

malki2 wrote:

I think men are by nature imposing.
Like an elephant in a crystal store.... that’s just how they are.
So can’t really tell them to be all feminine and gentle. But they are cautioned to be careful anyway in their own home.
Men by nature are מטיל אימה which is not s bad thing. Who wants a wimp of a husband...
But BH in a healthy marriage no wife I know is afraid of her own husband.

amother

Peach

Mon, May 11 2020, 6:40 pm

CiCi wrote:

You are basically just insulting any woman who doesn't feel the same as you.

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 6:44 pm

CiCi wrote:

By lack of equality I meant differences of tafkid. Maybe mathematically you could compare it to equality versus equivalency. Man and woman may not be equal that they are equivalent. As a post to today’s thinking that wants them to be equal as well.

imorethanamother

Mon, May 11 2020, 7:25 pm

malki2 wrote:

Respect of the wife as an equal partner in the household, for one. Respect for the tafkid of the woman as being equal to or even higher than the tafkid of the man.

Actually, King Shlomo said "Eishes Chayil Mi Yimtza" - this is generally accepted as a hypothetical question, because a woman of valor is apparently impossible to find.

And, if anyone read the link I had in my very first post, it is the source of the title of this thread. Once tefillin was dispelled by R' Meir to be a time-bound mitzvah (meaning, because it can be worn all day and even on Shabbos, it is NOT time-bound), then we need to find a reason as to why women can't wear it. In the link I had up there, it says:

Quote:

This definition goes beyond Talmudic sages Abaye and Rava's interpretation that people wearing "tefillin require a clean body like Elisha, the man of wings" (Shabbat 49a), which they respectively understand to mean an avoidance of flatulence and sleep (the latter being a time when flatulence and other unclean states occur). For the Meiri, the story of Elisha would suggest that righteous people, or those who become righteous through proper repentance, are the kind of people fit for wearing tefillin.

According to the Maharshal (Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin 1:64), this is part of why the sages did not protest Michal, the daughter of King Saul, because she was a "completely righteous person." For the Maharshal, then, having "a clean body" partly involves being a righteous person. Arukh HaShulchan (OC 38) similarly identifies "a clean body" as a physical, yet also spiritual, state, writing that Michal was righteous, and most women don't meet the requirements.

So right here, the Maharshal and the Aruch Hashulchan both argue that most women in the world are not righteous, but imply that men usually are, because they can wear tefillin.

It is absolutely not obvious to anyone that men consider our tafkid to be "higher than theirs". Far from it.