Women are usually bad?

imorethanamother

Mon, May 11 2020, 7:35 pm

CiCi wrote:

I don't see it as lack of equality. I see it as differences of our tafkid. Could you imagine how women would complain if in addition to taking care of children we'd have to run out three times a day to daven with a minyan? Give me a break. They are kechtzing because the secular world has lost the understanding of gender differences and our different roles and they are being jolted back to reality back through halacha. We are different, our duties are different, but we are equal. I don't feel less than my husband and I don't believe anyone with a healthy marriage feels that way either.

Rebbitzen Kanievsky davened with a minyan three times a day. I would love to daven three times a day with a minyan, I'm stuck doing it in my house because I have to watch the kids. But my hope is that one day, when my kids are older, I can do it too. Numerous sources discuss that Hashem doesn't "hear" the individual prayer. Don't you want your prayer to have the best possible chance to be heard by Hashem?

I'm really really sick of shouts of LIBERAL FEMINISM as some kind of argument for anytime a woman has a question as to why things have to be a certain way. Sara Schneirer didn't accept status quo and realized that times had changed. She instituted a system to teach our girls Torah when there are numerous sources (and she had numerous high-level opponents) telling her that it was forbidden.

Does anyone here believe that these days women are less clean than men? That women are unable to hold in their flatulence as well as men? Menstrual blood? I hear that, but not everyone thinks that menstruation equals a guf that isn't clean. I don't know why we can't argue that things have changed. It may be that the answer is that the minhag is for women NOT to wear it, but that woman CAN wear it (which, actually, the Gemara on Daf 62 comes to realize).

It clearly states that Queen Michal DID wear it, and no one calls her an evil feminist. They called her righteous. I'm not righteous, so I wouldn't dare to wear it. But why can't other people? Why can't this become a real thing?

imorethanamother

Mon, May 11 2020, 7:47 pm

malki2 wrote:

Just as modern, Western society has completely blurred the lines between men and women to the point that they can be completely interchangeable. Just cut off or add an appendage and there you have it. The minds and the emotions work exactly the same. If I don’t show you that the Talmud says that women can do everything that men can, or if I don’t show you that everything written about a husband vis-a-vis the wife is written the same as the wife vis-a-vis the husband, it will not fit your understanding of דרכי נעם, and you will not be satisfied. So I will not, and you will not, and that’s that.

Not every woman is the same. And in fact, there are a few sources I've come across that imply that female and male neshamos may be placed in the wrong gender body. Rabbi Glatstein has a whole shiur on Akeidas Yitzchak that it was a true blessing, because he actually DID die on the altar and killed off the female neshama he had inside him in exchange for a male one.

In this particular case, with our topic, many discuss that Queen Michal was able to wear tefillin because she realized she had a male neshama inside her, which was the reason why she couldn't have children.

At the very least, perhaps male and female are not as cut and dried as you think.

The point is that not every woman is made in the cookie cutter mold you expect. Bruriah was very un-female like, and was correct when she challenged R' Meir on daaten kalos hein, but she could have simply said that there are exceptions to every rule. (I make a far greater mistake than she does, by assuming all women are smart enough to learn Gemara. ) I was surrounded by brilliant women, growing up. And even these days, when my friends husbands are never home and we all have to help our sons with mishnayos and gemara homework.

Not every man is a gemara genius - many of them actually like parenting and housework much better than going out to be the breadwinner. Well, actually, I'm totally wrong. NO ONE LIKES HOUSEWORK. But some are much more feminine and some women are much more masculine.

No one is saying we need to start chopping off appendages, but we can't be so rigid in our role structure. If Hashem wanted us all to be the same, He would have made us all the same. He didn't.

imorethanamother

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:02 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

Moshe rabbeinu begged us do not write down the oral torah. Now you see why. Talmud wasn't written bnavuah. When men learn Talmud, they pick up the gist of it and go. They just dont get so attacked like us imas, no matter. The name of the thread makes it obvious that this is not about learning viscerally, its emotional. And thats why women should not learn oral torah inside , moshe was looking out for us when he said ko somer lbais Yaakov. If you want to believe women are as level headed as men just read through some of these posts and tell me if you can imagine men feeling like this. and not saying men don't have feelings, I believe their feelings are stronger, something about the way a woman's mind works that makes it healthier for her to just stop wanting what men have and then bitching about it. You dont need to understand allergies to stop coveting your poison

This post made me laugh. And it's actually a fair point - I think women internalize what they learn more, and try to live up to it, or try to take it apart. Men seem to read the scariest of things and shrug it off. But sometimes, you'll come across a Tanna or an Amora that seemed to be very emotional about the things they've learned.

Tell me, though, where does it say that one may not learn Gemara if you are an emotional person? If things bother you?

If the Torah is the blueprint of the world, and that includes the Oral Torah, and the world is made up of male and female forces, then what's wrong with women reading it? And by the way, the Oral Torah is Rashi and Rambam and Ramban too. You grew up with Oral Torah.

And finally, men can have all the emotions women do. Just read Nach. There's jealousy and bickering and hatred and gossiping and undermining and depression over not getting what you want. It's just that men are pretty much never jealous of women. They're also not jealous of slaves and children.

CiCi

Mon, May 11 2020, 9:01 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Is anyone forcing you to stay home? Hire a babysitter if you want to... Hashem only gave commandments that are able to be fulfilled. You you want to go to a minyan, no one is keeping you back. But in many frum households worldwide, women cannot run out to daven with a minyan. So exactly what are you complaining about? It was your choice to get married and have kids. You did not have an obligation to do so. You could've prayed every day, 3 times a day, but you took the path you did, do you think Hashem should've force you to go to a minyan on top of taking care of kids? And please, Hashem hears those who daven to Him with an emes. I do not believe there is a source that says Hashem doesn't hear individual prayers. Hashem sees and hears everything.

Quote:

I'm really really sick of shouts of LIBERAL FEMINISM as some kind of argument for anytime a woman has a question as to why things have to be a certain way. Sara Schneirer didn't accept status quo and realized that times had changed. She instituted a system to teach our girls Torah when there are numerous sources (and she had numerous high-level opponents) telling her that it was forbidden.

The question and argument was not phrased as an halachik discourse ( which in any case wouldn't be practical, it would be hypothetical). The title and the arguing was more of an emotional vent of "to what extent these Rabbis were miyogynists."

And all the knowledge that women have today is worth exatly 0 if they have no respect for our Rabbis and mesorah.

Quote:

Does anyone here believe that these days women are less clean than men? That women are unable to hold in their flatulence as well as men? Menstrual blood? I hear that, but not everyone thinks that menstruation equals a guf that isn't clean. I don't know why we can't argue that things have changed. It may be that the answer is that the minhag is for women NOT to wear it, but that woman CAN wear it (which, actually, the Gemara on Daf 62 comes to realize).

It clearly states that Queen Michal DID wear it, and no one calls her an evil feminist. They called her righteous. I'm not righteous, so I wouldn't dare to wear it. But why can't other people? Why can't this become a real thing?

There was no source that was bought forth saying that women are less clean than men. It was an erroneous conclusion not based on any source. Men used to wear tefillin all day but today due to our decline in cleanliness (and likely because our decline in spiritual level as well), they only wear it during shacharis. And women don't wear it nowadays bechlal because we are not mechiav to do so because this is a time-bound mitzva and therefore no chances need to be taken regarding not being clean. This has nothing to do with women being more unclean than men.

This minhag Yisroel was practiced for at least a millenia, perhaps even two, and minhag Yisroel is followed like halacha.

You are not smarter or on a higher spiritual level than the Rema and other Rabbonim who paskened halacha. You are not on a higher spiritual level than our female ancestors. Your desire to wear tefillin stems from your desire for so-called "equality". It is a desire that is secular in nature and not at all spiritual because would it be l'shem shomayim you would not want to trample on a mesorah that was practiced for over a millenia and by every segment of klal Yisroel.

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 11 2020, 11:59 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Rebbetzin Kanievsky didn’t used to when her kids were little!
And she didn’t put on tefillin.
It’s a joke for a woman to do that because she simply doesn’t need it! A man needs it to connect to Gd, she doesn’t. She connects without tefillin,
She’s was created with a completely different spiritual system than men, to facilitate her role here on earth.
It’s so simple!

Aylat

Tue, May 12 2020, 12:55 am

CiCi wrote:

Multiple sources were quoted in this thread. I refer you to an earlier post (page 2 I think) by imorethanamother and an earlier post (page 3 or 4) of mine. I don’t disagree with the thrust of your argument here: if it's not an obligation, don't do it because you might mess up, which is a big deal when wearing tefillin. But you are ignoring the question raised by imorethanamother at the beginning of this thread - why do the spiritual Rabbanim who paskened halacha (to paraphrase you) say that women are not careful to be clean? The Taz, Pri Megadim, Vilna Gaon, and others.

As I said earlier in the thread, the Pri Megadim's phrasing may answer this question - it's not that women cannot be careful to be clean, it's that someone who is not obligated and is doing the mitzva on a voluntary basis will not necessarily be careful enough. Thus slaves, who are also exempt from tefillin, are also not allowed to take on this mitzva.

imorethanamother

Tue, May 12 2020, 2:05 am

CiCi wrote:

First of all, who said anything about complaining? I was responding to someone who implied that women who act like they want to pray with a minyan three times a day are crazy feminists. If Rebbitzen Kanievsky did so, then clearly it's not a feminist issue. I also said that I want to do so WHEN MY KIDS ARE OLDER. Obviously I know all the blah blah Hashem gave me a tafkid, etc etc. I'm not sure why this is such a hot button issue that you have to accuse me of complaining. I did not complain, I expressed a desire to do something. That is very different. I hope that one day I keep my word, when life enables me to do so.

CiCi wrote:

I do not believe there is a source that says Hashem doesn't hear individual prayers. Hashem sees and hears everything.

Hashem prefers the tefillah with a minyan. There are so many sources, it's impossible to list them all. For starters, Masechta Berachos, daf 8. Here, this is in English. https://dafyomi.co.il/berachos.....8.htm

Another: https://www.halachipedia.com/I.....ote-1

Hashem hears the individual prayer when it is exceptional. On another daf in Berachos, Rabbi Akiva davened tremendously long when he was alone, and davened much less of the time when he was in a tzibbur. My shiur said that it was because the individual prayer - to be accepted - needs a lot more input, it needs to be a lot more exceptional. I think you would agree that I am not exceptional, as would most of my critics here.

CiCi wrote:

I really wish everyone would stop putting words in my mouth. I would like you to point to one place where I use the word "misogynists". I mean, really. I feel like these threads always devolve into bullying people and calling them names. I get that we are all passionate about Torah, but there's nothing to defend here. No one called anyone anything.

I didn't understand the rationale that women are dirtier than men (although Hillery and even you, quoting Chabad, provided some clarification) and the assertion that women are rarely righteous. I quoted the very phrases that said exactly that, I didn't interpret it in my own light, but cut and pasted a quote.

Yes, it upsets me that those sources don't consider most women to be righteous, but you misunderstand my intent. As I stated in a post on the first page, IF women are barred from doing all these time-bound mitzvos, AND sources state that women aren't as righteous as men, THEN we must conclude that celebrating the fact that we don't go to minyan (where Hashem accepts most tefilos), and NOT learning Torah (which gets us Olam Haba), and we don't wear tefillin (which Hashem wears every day) is celebrating our own downfall.

CiCi wrote:

And all the knowledge that women have today is worth exatly 0 if they have no respect for our Rabbis and mesorah.

Oh my G-d, this is ridiculous. If I had no respect for our Rabbis and our Mesorah, then would I even be here? Would I be here, on this ridiculous website, asking anyone for help with me understanding what I've learned? If I didn't respect our Chachamim, then why would I take any of their quotes and interpretations seriously? I'd just make up my own! If I hated Torah so much, would I be struggling with learning it, day after day? I am so so sick of this being the automatic reflexive response to everyone here.

I grew up in the Bais Yaakov system, and by heavens, so many of you are all reading from the same playbook. Calling people names, threatening women into cowing to your will, questioning their motives when they question something, you know what this gets you? Women who are so brow-beaten, they learn not to care anymore. And they don't. They either stop learning Torah, because it no longer gives them pleasure. Or they stop being frum. And you try to win them back by yelling at them about their tznius, or threatening them with calamities if they don't obey. But none of it will bring any of them back, because you've destroyed their love for Torah.

Women who love to learn Torah will come to tznius and middos tovos and mitzvos, and to all the things you hold so dear, because Torah brings you to truth. But pushing them away from Torah by telling them that their questions mean that they are lowly, disgusting people, does the opposite.

CiCi wrote:

There was no source that was bought forth saying that women are less clean than men. It was an erroneous conclusion not based on any source.

Sigh. Yes, there were sources. Please read the thread again.

CiCi wrote:

You are not smarter or on a higher spiritual level than the Rema and other Rabbonim who paskened halacha.

Correct. If I was, I wouldn't have to sit here, typing out the same question over and over.

CiCi wrote:

Your desire to wear tefillin stems from your desire for so-called "equality". It is a desire that is secular in nature and not at all spiritual because would it be l'shem shomayim you would not want to trample on a mesorah that was practiced for over a millenia and by every segment of klal Yisroel.

You don't know the first thing about me, what do you know about my motives? I'll leave the rest of your insult here, for posterity.

CiCi

Tue, May 12 2020, 2:53 am

Aylat wrote:

Not every Rabbi had the same reasons why they wrote women are generally more unclean than men. First of all, flatulence is only one reason why one can't have a gif nuki, menstruation is another, and there could be other reasons as well. Gif nuki can also mean spiritual cleanliness. I'm not going to bring sources here. You can look up link in the first post by immorethanamother. Since there are different opinions what gif nuki means, and they can be all of the above as well, I'm sure the Rabbis all had reasons why they ruled the way they did. One likely ruled that menstruation makes a woman not be clean (as the Maharam rules) it could be one Rabbi ruled women have a harder time regulating their thoughts so they may more easily think unclean thoughts, and as you said in your comment, the Pri Megadim's phrasing is that since women don't have a chiyuv to wear tefillin, it is easier to be lax in maintaining cleanliness...My point is that they all had reasons, and most had different reasons. They did not mean to degrade women who were there wives and mothers and sisters. And neither would they say our אמהות and נביאות were of lower spiritual levels...And on many places it says that women are on a higher spiritual plane than men. So let's not extrapolate from what some Rabbis say regarding women not having a gif nuki like men and decide that it means that they held that women are generally in all areas more unclean than men.

CiCi

Tue, May 12 2020, 3:28 am

imorethanamother wrote:

You don't know the first thing about me, what do you know about my motives? I'll leave the rest of your insult here, for posterity.

Why did you bring up davening with a minyan? What was your point? Did anyone say you can't do it? Did any Rabbi rule you can't do it? Where does this come into the picture? I'll tell you why you wrote it, you just wanted to show that we can do the same as men. In other words, you wanted to promote the agenda of "equality" I.e. the feminist agenda...

What is your point in titling this thread "women are usually bad" when in the Torah and the Talmud and numerous other sources state that valor of woman, the superior spirituality of women, etc. You are simply cherry picking what you deem to be negative that Rabbis said about us and ignore the entire picture. Now if this were just a regular question with no ulterior motives for proving how "negatively the Rabbis looked at women" then it would be stated completely differently, in a more neutral tone and with no condescending attitude towards our great Rabbis which is shown throughout the thread.

Last edited by CiCi on Tue, May 12 2020, 3:43 am; edited 1 time in total

Aylat

Tue, May 12 2020, 4:32 am

CiCi wrote:

Cici, couldn't you have responded to my or imorethanamother's post by saying "oops, I was mistaken. I see that there are indeed sources that (seem to?) say that women are less clean. You posted them earlier in the thread, sorry I missed that." And then continue to make your point.

You made a statement which is false. It would bolster not detract from your argument if you acknowledged that.