Women are usually bad?

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:06 am

malki2 wrote:

Aylat, I would generally agree with you. But when the title of the thread is “Women are usually bad”, it implies some sort of complaint or underlying deeper issue than merely a question for academic purposes. None of the Chachamim ever thought or felt that women are usually bad. It should not be the impression that someone gets from the Torah. I’m sorry, but I am sensitive to these things.

1) Personally (and as an educator) I sometimes pose questions in an extreme manner to highlight the issue. But I'll let imorethanamother speak for herself.

2) "Complaint"? No. But it hurts. It doesn't hurt you to read statements in Chazal that - at face value! - read as negative towards woman? It doesn't drive you to ask, why, how, what does this mean for me? Davka because I care about dvar Hashem. You're right it's not an academic question; it comes from a place of emotional involvement with Torah learning.

3) The bolded. You can really contribute to this discussion by bringing sources and perspectives that resolve the incongruity between seemingly negative statements about women and yet Chazal's respectful attitude. Rather than just stating it.

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:15 am

CiCi wrote:

Years ago it was an avodah to get a bath. It could very well be that the soot from the oven, the sandy floors, the crowded conditions in the home and women only bathing once a week, while the men likely led a "cleaner life" being out of the house more and bathing in the mikvah more often. We don't know the lifestyle they left then.

Cici thank you for the article you posted. Great sources and argument, I appreciate it.

Regarding this point. Men and women were both sweaty and dirty. If you worked in the fields, with animals, as a tanner, blacksmith, fisherman, butcher, whatever - you were dirty. It's not like today where working out of the house means putting on a suit and going to the office. Of course, there were also cleaner professions such as merchant or tailor, but women were often merchants too.

Men used mikva more often? Only if they were keeping takanat ezra, talmidei chachamim who ate chullin b'tahara or on mishmeret in the beit hamikdash. Regular Joe Bloggs living outside Yerushalayim probably went to mikva less than his wife who went every month when menstruating.

During the Roman times OTOH (ie the time of the Gemara) there were public bathouses for both men and women and cleanliness was a big thing. Plus it's a halacha to bathe erev Shabbat, both men and women.

Plus, as (malki2?) already said on this thread, guf naki doesn't mean no sweat and grime, it means no flatulence and definitely no faeces, possibly also no menstrual discharge.

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:16 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

My great great grandmother, back in the shtetl wore tzitzis and put on tefillin. She came from a rabbinical family, her husband was the rav of the town. Apparently the family was proud of her being such a holy woman, as the story was passed down.

Wow.

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:20 am

imorethanamother wrote:

So you would think that when the question the Gemara poses in Masechtas Shabbos arises, asking if women can carry a tefillin from rishus harabim into reshus hayachid

I want to go back into that Gemara (women wearing/carrying tefillin in reshut harabim) in more detail - like I said I've been skim-listening to the shiurim Sad

Help me out, which daf was it? Can't find at the moment.

Last edited by Aylat on Mon, May 11 2020, 8:35 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

Cerise

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:21 am

While a great question overall this thread title is so very sad. So sad to think that a frum woman could even think such a thing.
(do we think yisroelim are somehow "lesser" chas v shalom then koheinim? or simply have different roles to play in this great journey we are all connected in together!)
We learned women are of a higher source spiritually than the men, nothing against them.
We women are attributed with bringing yetzias metzrayim and more and again we will lead the way to the Geulah Shleimah!
May it happen now! Mamash!

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:24 am

Aylat wrote:

1) I understand the tactic. But on Imamother this leads to accusations of sexism and chauvinism.

2&3) I believe that the concept of downgrading of women to second class citizens came from secular society. So we should be beyond that. Especially in light of the fact that we know that we are highly regarded by our husbands. And wasn’t it the Rema himself who said with regards to leaning on Pesach that “All our women are considered Chashuvot”? Obviously at first superficial glance it might hurt if we see that someone said that women are dirty. But given the bigger picture, I would have expected this point to have been worked out prior to posting here, especially by someone so erudite as Imorethanamother.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:26 am

Aylat wrote:

This. (and/or you can answer in the “Derache’ha Darchei No’am” thread.)

These questions are being asked in all sincerity by women who are tremendously bothered by these statements. There are very, very many negative things said about women by Chazal (and even more by Rishonim), which are generalized to all women and result in lo plug halachos (which apply to all women without exception). This is not an impression built up from one (seemingly) unfavorable statement. It is a picture created by the myriad negative pronouncements, which are found all over halacha and hashkafa. If you have alternative/positive interpretations, it would be helpful to provide sources and citations, so that an alternative (more positive) picture can be painted . . .

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:28 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I think that we cross-posted. But I answered that just now. And please don’t exaggerate. It’s not “myriad negative pronouncements”.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 8:39 am

malki2 wrote:

I think that we cross-posted. But I answered that just now. And please don’t exaggerate. It’s not “myriad negative pronouncements”.

I am not exaggerating. It is myriad negative pronouncements. (I’m not looking to put them out here for those who are unaware of them, but it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.) You appear to very knowledgeable, so I can’t believe you are not aware of them . . .

In any case, I don’t see the sources or citations to back up your assertions. (One statement by the R’Ma, which is very narrowly applied - if at all - is not enough to outweigh and/or change the overall picture . . .)

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 9:01 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I’m not going to get into an argument of semantics. But my point is that in my opinion, you really miss the forest for the trees. Most women I know are aware of these types of statements. But they don’t get kept up at night by them because they understand the big picture. With all due respect to you, which I definitely have, I think that your mind is made up a certain way and it’s not going to be changed.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 9:22 am

malki2 wrote:

With all due respect to you, which I definitely have, I think that your answer is a cop-out.

Hillery

Mon, May 11 2020, 9:35 am

To clarify, the quote above כתב הר"מ is not the words of the Rema. At least not in shulchan aruch. There he just writes if women want to wear tefilin מוחים בידם, without giving a reason.

But I don't see what's so earth shattering about the reason given, namely that women can't keep themselves clean. As mentioned by myself and plenty others, the same is said for men, but they have a chiyuv, so they have to push themselves and take the risk so to speak.

That's in addition to what other posters have posited that women are more prone to flatulence (the definition of not guf naki), and to getting dirtied (and distracted) by their children. So even if it were to say that women can't keep themselves as clean as men, it's also not an insulting statement, merely a factual observation.