Women are usually bad?

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 12:49 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Daf 62

Where is גוף נקי brought up on this daf?

המוצא תפילין מכניסן זוג זוג אחד האיש ואחד האשה ואי אמרת נשים עם בפני עצמן הן והא מצות עשה שהזמן גרמא הוא וכל מצות עשה שהזמן גרמא נשים פטורות התם קסבר ר"מ לילה זמן תפילין הוא ושבת זמן תפילין הוא הוה ליה מצות עשה שלא הזמן גרמא וכל מצות עשה שלא הזמן גרמא נשים חייבות והא הוצאה כלאחר יד היא
Not in Rashi or Tosafot.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 12:53 pm

Aylat wrote:

I have not seen guf naki in the Gemara. It was brought up by imorethanamother, as it was obviously mentioned in the Shiur she listened to - as the primary reason for women being barred from putting on tefillin. She then researched it further and found that it is the most commonly accepted reason, etc. It is not written on the Daf.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 12:55 pm

malki2 wrote:

At least we have mutual respect!

So you really think that Chazal were sexist and chauvinistic?

Agreed!

On the one hand - it certainly seems that way (and I have numerous citations to support that view, which I will not put out here for above mentioned reasons). On the other hand - “Im rishonim k’malachim-anu k’bnei adam, im rishonim k’bnei adam-anu . . .” We are speaking of people, whom I have been raised to view with awe and reverence, and it is difficult for me to see them any other way. They are the purveyors of our religion, which I value immensely and keep assiduously. On the other hand, there are very many statements, which are racist and chauvinistic (at last if taken at face value.) Hence the cognitive dissonance, which I have referenced in the other thread . . . If there is another way to interpret these statements, I would certainly like to hear it, and I would love nothing more than to have my mind changed. (Cognitive dissonance is extremely uncomfortable and distressing . . .)

CiCi

Mon, May 11 2020, 12:57 pm

I don't see the entire point of being upset at Chazal and R"ma for supposedly being "chauvinistic" (not that we can be upset in any case... but here it's just not relevent) if there's no source saying that women are dirtier than men...

Last edited by CiCi on Mon, May 11 2020, 3:19 pm; edited 4 times in total

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:03 pm

Hillery wrote:

To clarify, the quote above כתב הר"מ is not the words of the Rema. At least not in shulchan aruch. There he just writes if women want to wear tefilin מוחים בידם, without giving a reason.

I looked it up.

שלחן ערוך אורח חיים לח: ג
נשים ועבדים פטורין מתפילין מפני שהוא מצוות .
עשה שהזמן גרמא
רמ"א
ואם הנשים רוצים להחמיר על עצמן מוחים בידם.

ט"ז
לפי שאינן זריזות להיזהר

ביאור הג"א
שאינן זריזות לשמור בגוף נקי

פרי מגדים
ומשמע עבדים אין מוחים שיכולים להיזהר וזה אינו דגם כן אין זהירים דפטורין וגם גרועה תו מנשים

I wonder if the bolded is a possible explanation. People who aren't obligated may be more careless.

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:04 pm

simba wrote:

Lucky is me who is not bothered with this question.

Yes you are. It’s called Temimus. I refer everyone to Rav Nachman’s story of the Sophisticate and the Simpleton. Simpletons are far from simple. None other than Yaakov Avinu was referred to as Ish Tam.

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:06 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Will you not be put at ease until you receive a satisfactory answer for each and every one of these “myriad” points?

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:12 pm

malki2 wrote:

Will you not be put at ease until you receive a satisfactory answer for each and every one of these “myriad” points?

It does not have to be an answer for each and every point (although that would be nice) but it would need to be enough to change the overall picture. . . To (loosely) quote the Brisker Rav: Although there can be a specific answer for each, individual question - when there is one teretz that answers all the kashias, that’s the real answer. . .

zaq

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:18 pm

I ignore the misogynistic statements in the Talmud. The rabbanim were products of their times and cultural surroundings, neither of which was famed for its positivity towards women. For every statement bashing women you can find one putting them on a pedestal. Men can’t make up their minds. Ignore the nonsense. You do you.

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:19 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I thought that I gave you one teretz. . . But seriously, if you are willing to accept answers that reach a general threshold to influence your understanding without requiring an answer to each and every question, then why not just take what we know about our Gedolim and their general respect of women to influence your understanding?

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:23 pm

zaq wrote:

This is how one speaks about Tanaim and Amoraim??? Nonsense??? Misogynistic???

אם ראשונים כמלאכים אנו כבני אדם. אם ראשונים כבני אדם, אנו כחמורים.

CiCi

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:23 pm

Chazal and our Rabbis accorded greatest respect to women. We do not understand everything that is written the Talmud, including much aggada. The are few negative refferences, and they are absolutely not a myriad of of them, that Chazal and Rabbonim made throughout the centuries, out of hundreds of thousands of pages of Mishnayos, Gemarah and later sources of halacha and mesorah. That which seems to be negative does often not actually mean as the literal words imply, there are mefoshim that explain exactly what it means in addition to the fact that women do have negative traits as do men as well. Ouur Rabbis were never about PC. Everything is put on the table.

Honestly, there needs to be more respect towards our holy Rabbanim. They are not answerable to us. The problem is not the legitimate questions that we can analyze and come to a conclusion...or maybe not. It's the attitude that we are by definition only equal if we are allowed to do as men do and the Rabbis were chauvinistic with their comments if they don't accord us that equality that we expect...

Chazal and the great Rabbis who who set forth halacha were kodesh elyoinim. We cannot fully comprehend their way of thinking and who they were. We will not have the answers to everything and we need to approach learning with humility, not with the attitude of "excuse me, how could they say that..."

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:25 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Got it.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:30 pm

malki2 wrote:

WADR You have not given a teretz which answers all the kashias.

Where do we find that our Gedolim have a general respect for women? (Not treating women kindly/nicely. Not respect for individual women of their family or acquaintanceship. But “general respect of women.”)

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:30 pm

malki2 wrote:

Yaakov Avinu also wrestled with Elokim and with his own dark side.
שרית עם אלוקים ועם אנשים ותוכל.
לב כט בראשית

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:32 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I would appreciate an answer to this question specifically as regards Chazal.

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:34 pm

Aylat wrote:

Coffee and Imorethanamother, what do you think of this as a possible explanation?
(Just addressing this specific question of גוף נקי and תפילין.)

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:35 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Not sure what your definitions of respect are. If you want me to show health at they treated women like men, I won’t be able to show that. Where do we see that there is no general respect for women? Because they didn’t teach them Torah?