Women are usually bad?

imasoftov

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:36 pm

כתב הר"מ is not the name of a person or work. It just means "the R.M. wrote". Who R.M. is, well it probably means a rabbi whose name starts with Mem, there are a lot of those. I've found this quote in two places where the translation says Maharam, although there are multiple rabbis (whose first name starts with Mem ...) known by that acronym (and others with that as their family name). Perhaps the best known of them is R Meir of Rotenberg and one source translates it as referring to him.

All three sources say it's found in Kol Bo 21, which would rule out Maharams who lived before it was written. When it was written (or by who) is unknown, although the Kol Bo is quoted in some early sources which I think excludes all of the names from the Maharam article except for R Meir of Rotenberg.

https://www.sefaria.org.il/she.....g2=en
https://seforimblog.com/2014/0.....chan/
http://www.old.kolech.org.il/m.....ng=en

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:38 pm

malki2 wrote:

Not sure what your definitions of respect are. If you want me to show health at they treated women like men, I won’t be able to show that. Where do we see that there is no general respect for women? Because they didn’t teach them Torah?

My question was in response to your comment about “our Gedolim and their general respect of women.” So let’s start with your definition of “respect of women.” What did you mean by that?

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:45 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

My question was in response to your comment about “our Gedolim and their general respect of women.” So let’s start with your definition of “respect of women.” What did you mean by that?

Respect of the wife as an equal partner in the household, for one. Respect for the tafkid of the woman as being equal to or even higher than the tafkid of the man.

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 1:55 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I’ll take that. Where can you find support for either of those concepts in ChaZaL and/or Rishonim?

Seriously?? Where do you not see this? Any simple, normal, decent Frum husband has this attitude. Kal vachomer the Gedolim. Kal vachomer Rishonim. Kal vachomer Chazal. I don’t even have to show you Chazal. Just look at the interactions between the Avos and Imahos.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 2:01 pm

malki2 wrote:

I have many, many sources and citations - which say just the opposite. Do you have any sources and/or citations from ChaZaL and/or Rishonim to back up what you say?

(BTW - While many frum men respect their own wives that doesn’t necessarily translate to respect for women in general. They just think their wives are the exception . . .)

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 2:11 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

So each man is respectful of his wife alone, but she is the exception, and he derides every other woman. I’ve seen too many spousal relationships to believe that. And I’ve been around a number of Gedolim and great people. I’m sorry, but in my opinion your general outlook on men is very warped. Honestly, I think that you have a very big chip on your shoulder and I don’t think that there’s anything that’s going to knock it off.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 2:35 pm

malki2 wrote:

WADR. You have not tried. Whenever I have asked for sources/citations, you have deflected my question(s) with ad hominem attacks on my attitude and/or character. If you have sources to back up what you are saying, then cite them please, so that I/we can consider them. If you don’t have sources to back up your position, then let me/us know, and we can end this conversation.

Hillery

Mon, May 11 2020, 2:52 pm

malki2 wrote:

Not sure what your definitions of respect are.

This is the key question. What do you mean by respect?

And as I wrote earlier, Chazal clearly hold that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. That does not translate to one gender necessarily being inferior, but in certain areas women are not as capable as men, and vice versa.

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 2:56 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

It’s not called an Ad Hominem attack if you state your personal opinion as evidence.

CiCi

Mon, May 11 2020, 3:17 pm

Sorry to quote Wikipedia but here you have some references what Chazal said about women
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik.....times

Classical Jewish rabbinical literature contains quotes that may be seen as both laudatory and derogatory of women. The Talmud states that:

Greater is the reward to be given by the All-Mighty to the (righteous) women than to (righteous) men[14]
Ten measures of speech descended to the world; women took nine[15]
Women are light on raw knowledge – I. e., they possess more intuition[16]
A man without a wife lives without joy, blessing, and good; a man should love his wife as himself and respect her more than himself[17]
When Rav Yosef b. Hiyya heard his mother's footsteps he would say: Let me arise before the approach of the divine presence[18]
Israel was redeemed from Egypt by virtue of its (Israel) righteous women[19]
A man must be careful never to speak slightingly to his wife because women are prone to tears and sensitive to wrong[20]
Women have greater faith than men[21]
Women have greater powers of discernment[22]
Women are especially tenderhearted[23]
While few women are mentioned by name in rabbinic literature, and none are known to have authored a rabbinic work, those who are mentioned are portrayed as having a strong influence on their husbands. Occasionally they have a public persona. Examples are Bruriah, the wife of the Tanna Rabbi Meir; Rachel, wife of Rabbi Akiva; and Yalta, the wife of Rabbi Nachman. Eleazar ben Arach's wife Ima Shalom counselled her husband in assuming leadership over the Sanhedrin. When Eleazar ben Arach was asked to assume the role of Nasi ("Prince" or President of the Sanhedrin), he replied that he must first take counsel with his wife, which he did.[24]

amother

Blush

Mon, May 11 2020, 3:34 pm

Moshe rabbeinu begged us do not write down the oral torah. Now you see why. Talmud wasn't written bnavuah. When men learn Talmud, they pick up the gist of it and go. They just dont get so attacked like us imas, no matter. The name of the thread makes it obvious that this is not about learning viscerally, its emotional. And thats why women should not learn oral torah inside , moshe was looking out for us when he said ko somer lbais Yaakov. If you want to believe women are as level headed as men just read through some of these posts and tell me if you can imagine men feeling like this. and not saying men don't have feelings, I believe their feelings are stronger, something about the way a woman's mind works that makes it healthier for her to just stop wanting what men have and then bitching about it. You dont need to understand allergies to stop coveting your poison

malki2

Mon, May 11 2020, 3:37 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

Wow. Where were you when we were having the discussion way back when about Melamda Tiflus? We could have used you!

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 3:54 pm

malki2 wrote:

אמרו חכמים אוהבה כגופה ומכבדה יותר מגופה is not enough?

מכבדה in this context is interpreted very narrowly as providing her with nice clothing and jewelry.

Compare:

וְכֵן צִוּוּ חֲכָמִים שֶׁיִּהְיֶה אָדָם מְכַבֵּד אֶת אִשְׁתּוֹ יוֹתֵר מִגּוּפוֹ וְאוֹהֲבָהּ כְּגוּפוֹ. וְאִם יֵשׁ לוֹ מָמוֹן מַרְבֶּה בְּטוֹבָתָהּ כְּפִי מָמוֹנוֹ. וְלֹא יַטִּיל עָלֶיהָ אֵימָה יְתֵרָה. וְיִהְיֶה דִּבּוּרוֹ עִמָּהּ בְּנַחַת. וְלֹא יִהְיֶה עָצֵב וְלֹא רַגְזָן:

to:

וְכֵן צִוּוּ עַל הָאִשָּׁה שֶׁתִּהְיֶה מְכַבֶּדֶת אֶת בַּעְלָהּ בְּיוֹתֵר מִדַּאי וְיִהְיֶה עָלֶיהָ מוֹרָא מִמֶּנּוּ וְתַעֲשֶׂה כָּל מַעֲשֶׂיהָ עַל פִּיו. וְיִהְיֶה בְּעֵינֶיהָ כְּמוֹ שַׂר אוֹ מֶלֶךְ. מְהַלֶּכֶת בְּתַאֲוַת לִבּוֹ וּמַרְחֶקֶת כָּל מַה שֶּׁיִּשְׂנָא

Husband is enjoined to give his wife nicer clothing and jewelry than he gives himself (which is how מכבדה is interpreted) and to speak nicely to her and not instill excessive fear in her . . .

Whereas -

Wife is enjoined to honor her husband excessively and be in awe of him, and conduct all her actions according to his words. And he should be to her as an officer or a king, and she should stay away from anything he does not like . . .

Do you see any equivalence here?

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 11 2020, 3:56 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

I certainly don’t understand this comment . . .

Aylat

Mon, May 11 2020, 3:59 pm

imasoftov wrote:

Thank you very much for these sources.

The Rema quotes Kol Bo.
What was cited earlier in the thread as Ktav Ram I found also in the Taz and Biur haGra.

CiCi

Mon, May 11 2020, 4:24 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Yoy, please! You are nitpicking! You are wearing the glasses of a liberal feminist.

The bottom line is that halacha does not dictate that a wife do something that doesn't make sense or so for all practical purposes it's not like his word is the end all or be all...

You can find sources saying that the husband should listen to his wife. You are really cherry picking here.