Open NYC now! | Imamother

Amarante

Thu, May 21 2020, 10:34 am

It’s not clear that opening WITHOUT the CDC precautions which have been used in other countries which have started to open will actually help the economy because a rise in cases is going to shut it back down without even considering human cost as well as the cost of medical care and shutting down various industries again.

Polling indicates that most rational people aren’t ready to give up social distancing anyway as they don’t intend to risk their lives to eat at a restaurant or shop at the mall.

And a mask is actually worn to a great extent to prevent spreading the disease to others and isn’t necessarily protective if someone isn’t wearing a mask in your vicinity Or if you inadvertently forget to disinfect a surface

Last edited by Amarante on Thu, May 21 2020, 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total

csa123

Thu, May 21 2020, 10:35 am

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

That's 100% wrong, and demonstrates a wholesale and fundamental lack of understanding of the situation.

Wearing a mask doesn't protect ME. It protects YOU from my spreading my germs to you. That's why refusing to wear a mask is so egregious. I honestly don't care if you want to risk your own life. Enjoy. But by not wearing a mask, you risk MINE, and are telling me that my life is not worth anything to you. And no, I cannot always socially distance from you. When you're standing at the gate of the park, or on a bench on a path. Or in the store when I'm grabbing a box of rice while you're talking on the phone, describing each type of rice to your spouse in detail while deciding which one to buy.

FTR, I had covid and recovered. I wear a mask because I haven't been able to retest, so cannot be positive that I no longer am infectious. And also because you have no way of knowing that I'm over it, and I wear it so you have no concerns.

Opening up the retail economy puts workers at risk, as the canaries in the coal mine. You can sit at your table in an inner tube, but someone is serving you, and their mask isn't protecting them, its only protecting you. The shoe salesman is touching boxes and surfaces that you touched, and maybe even touching your foot. The retail clerk is doing the same with clothing and other items. If they refuse to work, and to put themselves at risk, they lose their unemployment benefits. Nice.

We need to be ready to open, and do so slowly. Right now, there still is not enough hospital capacity to open to elective and non-emergency patients, for example.

But why are you pretending that there is nothing we can do between opening and allowing people to starve. NYC is providing meals, for example. We need to provide more support to small businesses, and to poorer people.

Maybe if we hadn't completely destroyed the economy, the taxpayer base, and spent 3 trillion dollars keeping people home who didn't really need to be home, we could provide the support. But since we did all of the above, we just won't have the money. People need to pay taxes for the government to have that money without risking rampant inflation.
Had we been even a little bit smart, we would have told the elderly and very vulnerable to stay home and would have provided that 3 trillion to them to enable them to do so for a long period of time while everyone else went to work and school. Since we didn't do that, we won't be able to support those people in their time of need since no one will have the money.

gold21

Thu, May 21 2020, 10:37 am

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

Yes, clearly I have a "wholesale and fundemental lack of understanding of the situation" because I don't agree with you.

Wait, is this the thread for the angry folk who think anyone who disagrees with them is a moron?

I missed the memo.

(P.S. Social distancing does protect you, and is achievable- If masks aren't protective, what was the big hoopla about PPE for healthcare workers....- Gloves are protective- Hand washing/ hand sanitizing is protective- But don't listen to me, I have a wholesale and fundemental lack of understanding of the situation....)

Last edited by gold21 on Thu, May 21 2020, 10:41 am; edited 3 times in total

Amarante

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:06 am

gold21 wrote:

PPE is not what civilians are using for masks. PPE for medical personnel is special designed to block out the virus effectively and is also generally worn with a face shield because the Covid19 virus can enter through the eyes.

The civilian masks which are being worn have some protection for the wearer but the chief benefit is for the protection of others since it blocks the large droplets that are emitted from coughing and sneezing and perhaps, to some degree, the smaller virus.

So masks are protective ONLY if everyone is wearing one. And how do you wear a mask in a restaurant - for example.

And unfortunately the economy is being "opened" at the risk of the poorest paid workers - clerks, meat packing people, retail establishments, waiters etc. Many people in better paying white color jobs can effectively telecommute and/or are able to work in offices where they are not being exposed to mass numbers of people.

What I find VERY ironic is that the White House and Trump are using the best practices advised by the CDC - frequent tests; temperature tests; contact tracing; masks worn by everyone except Trump and yet the "little people" are supposed to expose themselves to danger WITHOUT those precautions for the sake of the Dow Jones. Banging head

Genius

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:12 am

Amarante wrote:

I’m sure many of these workers want to go back to work. Life is risky. Mental health and money are important too but nobody seems to care about that. Younger people have a lower death rate so a majority of these workers will not die of covid (there might be a bigger chance that they’ll die of hunger or suicide though I have no evidence to back my claim)

csa123

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:12 am

Amarante wrote:

The sake of the Dow Jones or the jobs of 40 million people?

gold21

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:13 am

Amarante wrote:

I believe civilians can purchase N95 masks now. There isn't really a shortage anymore Many people have them.

Definitely would be best if worn by everyone. But it's difficult to get every person in the whole NY to follow these rules.... Lockdown or no lockdown, not everyone will make safe choices. Every person has to look out for themselves.

There are health risks in extended lockdown, too. Like I said, it's a gray area.

amother

Pewter

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:23 am

gold21 wrote:

My brother's hospital is unable to obtain sufficient N95 masks. My dentist stopped doing emergencies because she cannot obtain N95 masks.

They're single use, you know. Although there is some evidence you can sanitize and use up to 3 times.

Amarante

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:27 am

csa123 wrote:

The sake of the Dow Jones or the jobs of 40 million people?

It's not a binary decision - If things open up without any implementation of the precautions recommended by the CDC, the economy will not recover.

The economy is not going to get back to "normal" if it ever does again until people feel safe taking part in things. There are major portions of the economy - e.g. restaurants, events, movies - which can't reopen safely because sane people are not going to spend their money to risk their lives. How do you feel about taking an Uber not knowing who has just been riding in it?

Who wants to ride a rush hour subway or bus to their job? Again, many people with white color jobs are able to telecommute and have been doing that. From what I have read, there is discussion that office buildings in central downtown areas will be obsolete because companies have learned to operate effectively with workers telecommuting and they save costs of housing them. Google (for example) is not calling its workforce back until at least 2021.

So many jobs are not going to magically appear just because it is "open".

Amarante

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:37 am

CiCi wrote:

There are many older people who want to go back to work, not only those under 60 years of age. And there are many younger people who "want to play it safe" and keep on quarantining and SDing.

I cannot understand what the arguing is about. You want to stay home, do so! You want to SD, do so! You want to have your business closed, it's your choice! But others don't have to do what you want to do.

The issue is that people don't live in a vacuum so if best practices aren't followed in terms of opening safely, then everyone is endangered.

Honestly if it was just people who wanted to go out and risk their lives, I wouldn't care but the disease spreads exponentially and spreads before people are symptomatic.

Also - are people who are flaunting social distancing prepared to NOT use any kind of medical care since treating Covid19 patients is risky so every sick person directly endangers the lives and health of those who will be treating the person.

CiCi

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:42 am

Amarante wrote:

Well, so therefore all people of the world will be locked in forever or wear masks forever or never see their older relatives again because there are people who are scared of coronavirus which is here to stay?

amother

Pewter

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:42 am

CiCi wrote:

PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO RETURN TO WORK WILL LOSE THEIR UNEMPLOYMENT.

I can't stress that enough. You don't get a choice. If you are a cleaning person at Target, and you're called back, you go, or you lose both your salary and your unemployment. While the executives work from home, or from a large and isolated office. They're not the ones at risk.

The waiter is removing dishes that you ate from, and bringing your food close. The clerk at the store is touching items you touched. Forget the hairdresser and the manicurist, who are practically on top of you. As is the dentist. Do you want to be the person washing dishes and wiping down tables at a restaurant?

Social distancing is effectively impossible for lower income people who rely on public transit to get to their jobs. They're stuck on the seats others have used, or touching poles others have touched. And even apart from that, how do you avoid everyone? They walk towards you. They step beside you at lights.

Its not as simple as you pretend.

We need to do this slowly, in phases, gauging safety. Not like China, which is now back in shutdown.

amother

Pewter

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:46 am

genius wrote:

For those claiming that the economy should not be opened what do you suggest? The situation cannot continue the way it is now

In NY, most of the state has moved to phase 1. Once there is sufficient hospital capacity, so will the remaining areas. We move slowly, seeing how things progress. Ensuring that we protect the most vulnerable. And vigorously enforce social distancing and mask requirements. Warning the first violation. $100 fine the second. $1000 the third. 30 days in jail thereafter.

And we give real economic assistance to small businesses and to people living on the edge.

Amarante

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:48 am

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

I can't like your post enough Very Happy

Many of the states that opened quickly with NO RESTRICTIONS at all did so in order to prevent low income workers from collecting unemployment.

And it is those workers in low paid, high risk jobs that bear the brunt of reopening.

Again, no one is saying never to open but to do it SAFELY.

Why are "we" not protected in the same way that the White House is? If those are best practices, why aren't they MANDATED for workers returning.

amother

Ecru

Thu, May 21 2020, 11:52 am

gold21 wrote:

PPE is to keep the person wearing it safer.

Cotton masks are to keep the people around the people wearing them safer.

In other words, cotton masks support public health. PPE supports personal heath.