IQ tests in children

rosehill

Mon, Feb 04 2008, 5:17 pm

I firmly believe (as I've said in many posts about many issues), that it's about function. If he's picking up what he needs to in class, playing at an appropriate level with his friends and so on, and meeting other age appropriate fine motor/gross motor/cognitive/perceptual/verbal/social goals, then the number the psychlogist gave you is really irellevant.

If he's not achieving what would be expected of a child his age, a standardised test is often a useful way of measuring where the breakdown is occuring, and hence, how to address it.

Whether or not he was focused that day also depends. If he generally has trouble focusing, then his performance on the test amy be indicative of his ability to perform in class, and may be relevant. But if he was unfocused because he was tired, sick, on medicattion, nervous etc, then the result of the test would likely not be an accurate reflection of his abilities.

Bottom line. He's the same kid he was the day before the test was done. If you were worried about him then, continue to persue whatever help you were already persuing. If you weren't worried about him then, no need to start now. Just keep a closer eye on the domains where he appeared to have trouble.

HTH.

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You can re-test with another psychologist and another test right away.

Not necessarily. That often invalidates the results. WIth the standardised testing that I do, it cannot be reliably repeated within 6 months.

chocolate moose

Mon, Feb 04 2008, 5:39 pm

I was always considered "bright", but had a hard time learning (some) things. For once and for all, I wanted to find out if I was dumb or not, so as an older teen, I took one of these paid, proctored tests. And I did fine, and I'll tell you what I paid the ppl in charge there when I told them my tale of woe:

People learn things at different speeds. IQ really doesn't count for anything.

Some very bright people are lazy and if they don't push themselves, will not go far in life. And vice versa - look at our President. An average student, and yet he's the Leader of the Free World.

Every athlete & musician has to practice. Talent only gets you so far in life.

Does that help you at all ?

gryp

Mon, Feb 04 2008, 6:23 pm

Wow, thanks for all the input! I feel much better about this now.

To make it clear, my 4 yr old is going to be receiving in-school therapy to help him learn how to interact with other children his age. For those who know what selective-mutism is, he was selective-mute last year suddenly in the middle of the school year, and since then we've been helping him cope around other people. He's improved by leaps and bounds, isn't selective-mute anymore, but he has a really hard time bring around other people. He's pretty okay with adults, but still needs a lot of help to teach him how to play with other kids his age.

The IQ test is a routine test given as part of the evaluation for therapy. No, micki, LOL, you're not missing a part of parenting! Smile

to be continued...

gryp

Mon, Feb 04 2008, 6:45 pm

amother wrote:

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Testers don't take into account that children are frum any more than they take into account that parents are foreign-born, or the family is black, or the parents are not present very much, if at all. They ask the questions and give scores and comments.

That's a lousy tester. I supervise testers and train testers and if a psychologist does not take into account cultural factors, language, etc., they are not worth the paper their diploma is printed on. There are plenty of good testers who know how to ascertain whether a child's score is reflective of his ability or his mood or his cultural exposure, etc.

Mumoo- that is a horrible story. I hear these stories and wonder how these people got licensed. When I work with kids who won't talk, I don't test them. Sometimes we play games, sometimes we color, until the child is ready and interested.

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I know it's a standardized test, but does who the test-giver is have any bearing on the score?

Of course. The rapport your child has with the tester GREATLY influences the motivation your child has to respond, his interest in the whole process, etc.

You should get your child re-assessed, even if it is only for your peace of mind.

Amother, thank you for your post(s?). That's exactly what I wanted to know.

My son really needs that starting warm-up before the actual test, and not only didn't he get it, but the tester came rushing into the classroom and practically grabbed my son to rush him into the next room for testing. Thank G-d his wonderful experienced teacher stopped her in her tracks and told her to hold it and take a few minutes to calm herself down because she's not giving any of her students over to anyone in such a absent-minded hurried state.

On the other hand, by the first part of the evaluation, the other therapist caught my son fresh in the morning, gave him plenty of time to get used to her by playing with other kids first and only then singling out my son, before beginning the evaluation. She told us that she was extremely impressed by the amount of knowledge he has and that he is very bright. He also is mentally above his age level, but that he doesn't know how to use all the things he has in a social setting.

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GR- I really recommend that you get your child assessed again, just so YOU don't feel that he is less capable than what you think, sometimes parents subtly revise their expectations of their children based on some incompetent psychologist's assessment and that would be very unfortunate.

Thanks for the advice. I think you're right.
For now I'm dismissing the testing results completely, and we'll see what happens as far as retesting.

Thank you rosehill for your extremely helpful post, as well.

As I said before, I'm not the kind of mother who will believe all my kids are geniuses just because. If the low results reflected what I know to be true, I would have no problem accepting the low results. But they seem ridiculously low compared to what I know my son's capabilities are. Considering all the factors involved, I just don't believe the results are accurate.

amother

Mon, Feb 04 2008, 9:45 pm

I am a frum school psychologist and I give these IQ/cognitive tests professionally. To address some of the points...I always ask my parets questions but that's for the sole person of the "background information" section of the report and to get a picture of the child from their point of view. It has absolutely no bearing on the results or the way the test is administered. The only time I write that a particular culture affected the child's performance is if the test was done bilingually with an interpreter and the language barrier was still present. In regard to your child being called distracted and spacy...speak to the teacher to find out how he is in class. We must report what we see and if the child did not score well we will attribute it to the behaviors noted. this does not mean that this is who the child really is. I always tell the parents..." I am looking at your child for an hour, you know him much better, maybe he is tired, hungry, scared, etc. but nevertheless I need to write what I see. If the parent disagrees and feels that the child has the ability to do better I always make note of that too. The evaluater may recommend services to address your child's attention span. It is your right to accept or decline services. This does not mean your child should lose his genius status in your eyes Smile

amother

Tue, Feb 05 2008, 9:52 am

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You can re-test with another psychologist and another test right away.

Not necessarily. That often invalidates the results. WIth the standardised testing that I do, it cannot be reliably repeated within 6 months

I am the first amother, not the one above. I want to point out, rosehill, that you can do another IQ test immediately as long as it is not the same test, it will not invalidate any results. So if she had the WPPSI done, she can get the WJIII done tomorrow, should she want that.

Also, to the amother who wrote this:

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I always ask my parets questions but that's for the sole person of the "background information" section of the report and to get a picture of the child from their point of view. It has absolutely no bearing on the results or the way the test is administered. The only time I write that a particular culture affected the child's performance is if the test was done bilingually with an interpreter and the language barrier was still present.

The numbers may look the same, but your interpretation of the report should be very different. For example, if you ask the library question or the newspaper question (from the WISC-IV) and the child does not go to a nonJewish library and does not have exposure to newspapers, you need to strongly caution the readers of your report because the child's scores will not reflect his ability, but rather his exposure. What if the child answers the fruit question with "they both need a bracha" or if the child says for the alphabet question "alef, bais, gimmel, daled, etc." There are so many more examples. You really, really need to include cultural cautions when you write up the results. Otherwise we have these situations where parents walk away thinking their child is less capable than he is and really it is just that the test was normed on the average American kid, not the average chassidishe/chareidi child.

GR- If your son has had difficulty with selective mutism in the past, I would certainly only see professionals who have had experience with that. Testing a child who has a history of selective mutism requires considerably more skills than the average Joe school psych has. If that is not an option, ask that only a nonverbal IQ test be given. Good luck!

rosehill

Wed, Feb 06 2008, 7:41 pm

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I want to point out, rosehill, that you can do another IQ test immediately as long as it is not the same test, it will not invalidate any results. So if she had the WPPSI done, she can get the WJIII done tomorrow, should she want that.

Oops, didn't read that properly. Maybe I'm dyslexic???

And yes, what you say about cultural differences is very relevant. My son lost points in one of these tests (he was about 5y.o IIRC), for saying Shabbos as one of the days of the week. Also, when asked what we do on a holiday, he didn't know the answer, but when I asked him at home what we do on Yom Tov, he knew it perfectly. It's a bit like being bi-lingual, I think.

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As I said before, I'm not the kind of mother who will believe all my kids are geniuses just because. If the low results reflected what I know to be true, I would have no problem accepting the low results. But they seem ridiculously low compared to what I know my son's capabilities are. Considering all the factors involved, I just don't believe the results are accurate.

As I said, he's the same kid he was the day before the test. Same strengths, and same weaknesses. Surround him with wise people who have experience dealing with children like him, and you will BE"H see good results.

gryp

Wed, Feb 06 2008, 7:57 pm

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And yes, what you say about cultural differences is very relevant. My son lost points in one of these tests (he was about 5y.o IIRC), for saying Shabbos as one of the days of the week. Also, when asked what we do on a holiday, he didn't know the answer, but when I asked him at home what we do on Yom Tov, he knew it perfectly. It's a bit like being bi-lingual, I think.

I think it does fall under the category of being bilingual. That's what another therapist told me.

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IY"H! He really needs help dealing with other kids, and adults too sometimes. I'm still working on finding the perfect therapist to teach him these things.
(Even when he socializes perfectly fine, it's because he is forcing himself because he wants to be "normal" so badly. If you don't know him you might not be able to tell that he isn't acting exactly right, but I see the strain on him.
And boy is he taking it out on us at home! I have to keep him extremely busy doing constructive things or he can turn the house upside down in a second. He's earning stars and prizes for good behavior, but it's really hard for him to behave at home. I can't believe I'm talking about the same child he once was. I'm writing this in parentheses(sp?) because I know my child isn't exactly an interesting subject. Wink

)

amother

Fri, Feb 08 2008, 12:59 pm

I was taught that we cannot administer certain tests if they have had them within the past 2 years.

Ruchel, you are correct that some IQ tests are meant for kids 6+, however there are other developmental tests that can capture where a younger child is at.

The purpose of a good psychoeducational assessment is to see where a child's strengths and weaknesses are so as to better facilitate their learning. Unlike medicine, you can't always pinpoint the problem by running a test and looking at the results. Tests will generate hypotheses that the psychologist then needs to explore.

gryp

Sat, Feb 09 2008, 8:24 pm

Thanks, rosehill, LOL. Smile

B"H he has improved to the point that he is out of the selective-mute category in most situations.

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Remember, it's always better when kids act out at home and "behave" in school that the other way around!!!!

I need to keep repeating that to myself. He's a fantastic kid and we had some good days recently.

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Have you tried play dates with one other very nice child? What happens? Will he play next to a child or watch a video sitting next to another child? Will he take turns in a board game? Where is his line?

Thanks, amother, for your input. I'll freely admit that I haven't made enough playdates for him, but it's not like I haven't tried at all.
How does he act when one of his classmates comes over? Truthfully, I don't know! We haven't had any playdates recently so I can't tell.
He talks to and plays very nicely with 6 or 7 boys (out of 21) in his class that he trusts enough to let his guard down with them. This is a huge improvement, he used to just freeze in some kind of awkward nervous stance and stare at them.
He'll even approach one of his friends and talk to them and that's another huge improvement.
He's taken another giant leap in the last week or so, in that he'll stand up when it's free-play time in the classroom and go find what to play with on his own without the teacher telling him exactly what to play with where and with who.
He's really doing fantastic compared to how he used to be but he still needs help in closing the gap between what he does and what he should be doing. And we need it to be natural to him, not forced and strained out of his desire to be just like the other kids.
The next big thing we have to work on with him is not being overwhelmed in a room with other people around or on a full playground. He has extreme anxiety and feels very threatened and insecure and I think once we solve this one he'll be more relaxed and happier too, never mind more well-behaved which isn't the most important goal he needs to reach.