What stuff to buy to help her fit in to camp

SixOfWands

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 11:06 pm

Blessing1 wrote:

Every society is the same at it's own level.
Wanting to fit in is not giving into peer pressure to such an extent.

Yes.

Teens are pack animals. Even the kids who want to be different all tend to do so in the same way. And the culture of each camp differs, so knowing what is "in" doesn't mean it will be "in" at that camp.

Some of it is silly stuff. If you don't know that every girl in the bunk is going to sit around at night clutching her squishy pillow while shmoozing, you won't know to bring your squishy pillow. You won't be rejected, but you'll feel weird.

And a lot of the rest is who cares. Who cares if they buy their daughter a hoodie from her school, because everyone wears them, not a hoodie from the store.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jun 16 2020, 11:28 pm

sequoia wrote:

I just want to comment on the idea that every society has these exact standards of what’s “trendy” or not.

I have NOT found that to be the case among my generation in the secular world.

A woman of my mom’s generation once remarked to me that I should dress zexier, wear makeup, etc. But in my age group, it really is all about individuality.

Of my female friends here:

1. One dresses f-tish/goth, with corsets, black lipstick, piercings, temporary tattoos, kinky boots, and all black clothing

2. One dresses in a cutesy way, with colorful minidresses, tons of makeup (I took the overnight train with her... girl set an alarm for six am to do her makeup), and looong flowing hair

3. One dresses in a wholesome way, in loose sweaters, plain jeans or skirts, curly hair, glasses, and no makeup but still looks awesome

4. One wears pantsuits, office-style makeup, neat haircut, nice shoes, and jewelry

5. And I wear t-shirts, maxi skirts, and ballet flats

And I swear no one is “in” or “out” and no one is trying to imitate anyone else.

It seems frum society is more dedicated to fitting in than the world at large.

You're an adult. That's very different from being 14.

And each of your friends seems to dress in accordance with the group norms of some group. Be it goth or professional or crunchy earth mom. Each is pretty much a stereotype; the only interesting fact is that they formed a cohesive group.

dancingqueen

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 12:30 am

sequoia wrote:

Every society has social and fashion norms to some extent. But there is a bit of an intense fixation on having the exact right kind clothes of clothes and other externals from infants through adults in frum society.

Ora in town

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 2:48 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I agree with you.

Some people seemed to understand that I was hinting that only frum society had fashion norms, and that I was singling out frum society.

That's not true.

I was speaking out against parents being trend-scouts for their teenagers in general, not davka only in frum society.

I understand that teenagers might have an urge for conformity sometimes, and I would not refuse my teenager an item they want just because everyone has it. I would perhaps tell them to pay for it from their own money, at least partially, or wait for a special occasion to give it to them.

At the same time, I try and teach my children that they should try to evaluate themselves the merits of a product. As it happens, my teens are/were not particularly interested in brands. My youngest even changed youth club to a less fashionista (and less religious) one, because the girlie girl attitude in the one she went to irked her. She's more into animals and farm life...

What I don't understand is a society where adults adopt this teenager mentality. On this thread, there were quite a few adults speaking like high-school students, including the nasty [replacing another word, as foul and coarse language is not allowed on this site - mod] ("nerdy"), etc.... Personally, I don't think this is their role... And I have the impression that they are the ones pushing the fashion norms and also the snobbing of teens who don't conform to them...

shyshira

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:18 am

Ora in town wrote:

I agree with you.

Some people seemed to understand that I was hinting that only frum society had fashion norms, and that I was singling out frum society.

That's not true.

I was speaking out against parents being trend-scouts for their teenagers in general, not davka only in frum society.

I understand that teenagers might have an urge for conformity sometimes, and I would not refuse my teenager an item they want just because everyone has it. I would perhaps tell them to pay for it from their own money, at least partially, or wait for a special occasion to give it to them.

At the same time, I try and teach my children that they should try to evaluate themselves the merits of a product. As it happens, my teens are/were not particularly interested in brands. My youngest even changed youth club to a less fashionista (and less religious) one, because the girlie girl attitude in the one she went to irked her. She's more into animals and farm life...

What I don't understand is a society where adults adopt this teenager mentality. On this thread, there were quite a few adults speaking like high-school students, including the bitchy vocabulary ("nerdy"), etc.... Personally, I don't think this is their role... And I have the impression that they are the ones pushing the fashion norms and also the snobbing of teens who don't conform to them...

Overnight camp is a bubble.

There is no showing up on the first day seeing what all the other girls have, going home at night and negotiating with mom to get it for you for the next day.

Understanding teens (and kids) have need for conformity - and setting them appropriately before they get on a camp bus - is thoughtful parenting.

Ora in town

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:56 am

shyshira wrote:

I still don't understand... I mean: your teen is with other teens all the time. So if it is important to them what the "with it" crowd has or wears, they should know themselves. Why do they need me, old-fashioned, out-of-the-loop mom to tell them?

That's the part I don't get...and the part I feel is unhealthy...

shyshira

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 4:15 am

Ora in town wrote:

Did you go to overnight camp?

Do you know anything about OPs child? The status of her friendships? Whether or not she is going to camp with her friends?

myname1

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 4:20 am

Ora in town wrote:

What I don't understand is a society where adults adopt this teenager mentality. On this thread, there were quite a few adults speaking like high-school students, including the bitchy vocabulary ("nerdy"), etc.... Personally, I don't think this is their role... And I have the impression that they are the ones pushing the fashion norms and also the snobbing of teens who don't conform to them...

I agree with this to some extent. I once heard an adult tell her 8 year old daughter to undo the top button of her collared dress because it looked nerdy, and that struck me as odd and immature.

I remember when I was about 10 in public school (not yet frum), a kid in my class asked me why I always wear a T-shirt with flowers, and I said because my mom buys it for me and gives it to me to wear. Because I didn't care at all at that age. And my mom likes flowers. And that was the end of it. Now it must be that that was totally "nerdy" to wear at that time, but whatever, who cares?

But overnight camp at age 14 I'm sure is different, especially if the dd does want to fit in and recognizes that she doesn't quite know how.

Actually, my mom and I were discussing this need to do what others do just the other day. She has real confidence in doing what she does, which I think is a great thing and rubbed off on my to some extent. Probably had a lot to do with my becoming frum. But that same quality in the frum world might davka make someone become not frum. We don't necessarily want our kids to be themselves to such an extent because we put them in environments with people we want them to emulate. A group of girls enjoying being good frum girls together is likely to stay a group of good frum girls more than a girl who just wants to be herself. Just some food for thought...

Ora in town

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 4:40 am

myname1 wrote:

Same here, although I was always involved in clothe shopping and had a choice... but I did not care much...

myname1 wrote:

But overnight camp at age 14 I'm sure is different, especially if the dd does want to fit in and recognizes that she doesn't quite know how.

Actually, my mom and I were discussing this need to do what others do just the other day. She has real confidence in doing what she does, which I think is a great thing and rubbed off on my to some extent. Probably had a lot to do with my becoming frum. .

That might be true...

myname1 wrote:

But that same quality in the frum world might davka make someone become not frum. We don't necessarily want our kids to be themselves to such an extent because we put them in environments with people we want them to emulate. A group of girls enjoying being good frum girls together is likely to stay a group of good frum girls more than a girl who just wants to be herself. Just some food for thought...

If you knew my children you would understand that this is not our choice to make... Some children are conformist by nature, others less so...
I think society should have a place for both types...

Ora in town

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:42 am

shyshira wrote:

Great. This thread isn't about you.

I asked if you went to overnight camp - as you said that you "didn't understand".

Perhaps I don't know what it is you don't understand.

I don't understand that mothers would meddle in this kind of stuff, what is "with it" and what is not "with it" among their teenage children...

if it's important to a teenager, they should know on their own.

I think the parent's role in this context is rather to reduce this kind of attitude (following fashion fads) than to promote and encourage it.

Last edited by Ora in town on Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total

myname1

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:03 am

Ora in town wrote:

If you knew my children you would understand that this is not our choice to make... Some children are conformist by nature, others less so...
I think society should have a place for both types...

You know what, this I think is the most true of all. While I was thinking more about this now, I remembered that my mom's totally non-Jewish friend once commented "Why don't you take half the money you spend on toys for these kids and spend it on stylish clothes instead?" But I thought she was nuts!! And I have a sister who I remember crying to my mom when she was 14-ish for some special stylish shirt my mom didn't think she needed. So it really does depend a lot on personality.

But really we can't judge this OP regardless. Her daughter might be totally normal and just really want to fit in. Or she might be seriously depressed and the therapist thought this was the right solution. Or she might have no friends in school and she/her mom wants her to have a fresh start and thinks this is the way to do it. Or something else. Plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to want to fit in.

shyshira

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:07 am

Ora in town wrote:

The mother (OP) is meddling in because for whatever reason - her daughter doesn't have this information, or doesn't know to ask.

The parent's role is to help her daughter fit into camp. To set her daughter up for a successful summer. That's how she chooses to parent.

Do you understand another point of view? Do you accept another point of view?

freilich

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 7:15 am

Chayalle wrote:

This.

Many years ago, a woman wrote a letter to The Jewish Observer (anyone remember that?) that I wish I had clipped and framed, as it's something I live by.

In the letter she said that the one or two luxuries she allowed herself (in her case, it was a nice sheitel, and I don't remember what else) that satisfied a certain need in her, and gave her the strength to live simply and minimally in other areas.

I've found this principle to help me tremendously in raising my children. Sometimes, fulfilling a certain need of theirs to have something that helps them fit in, or feel special, or whatever....gives them enough, and then they don't need in in every single other area. (Note: I've found that some kids simply "need" more than others, so then it's 3 or 4 things you give in on for that kid, instead of 1 or 2...) Your child may not need a wardrobe full of hardtail skirts and shirts, but one outfit that she can choose to make herself feel "with it" or whatever,may help, and you can squeeze yourself for that.

My 12 year old wanted a certain pair of sneakers, and I got it for her. She's so excited and keeps telling me how much she likes them. The rest of her wardrobe is pretty basic and inexpensive, but this is helping her feel so confident, it's worth those extra $$.

Chanoch L'naar Al Pi Darko....so that when they grow up, they have fond memories of those silly things they thought were IT in their childhood, but are glad their parents understood them....

Your one smart mom!