AG Rules Women Can Take Rabbanut Tests

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:15 pm

banana123 wrote:

OP asked what we think.

I didn't say I take issue with women taking the test. I take issue with other things, related to the core issue of why this even came to be a discussion. I take issue with dumbing things down. But if a woman wants to test, I don't think it has any meaning. Let her test and have her ego pill.

I have to say I'm shocked and appalled at the contempt and denigration here towards women who spend years and years studying Torah.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:18 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

It's about equal pay AND stature and recognition for halachically knowledgeable women.

Stature and recognition are not dirty words in my world. Some people seem to think they should be adjectives only reserved for men. I happen to disagree.

As for your last point - is it a baby step away from ordaining women. Most of the orthodox world is far more than a baby step away from ordaining women. Will the non-Orthodox world use this as a prerequisite for women they ordain anyway? Maybe. You can't control what different communities will do with this. Conservative and reform Judaism are starting to gain a bit of traction in Israel, and very LW minyan shivyoni type Orthodoxy is as well. What will they do with this? Who knows.

You can't refuse women equal rights just because you are worried what certain communities will do with it. In any case, there are already female rabbis in Israel, this isn't going to suddenly give them any ideas.

Ahhhhh, so it's NOT about the rabbanut test at all. And it's not really about equal pay, either - like I said, that's just a part of it that serves as a nice "handle" that's tough for anyone to argue with.

Look. The rabbanut does not want a hand in ordaining women. Period. As much as I disagree with a lot of how the rabbanut does its stuff, they do have a right to say "we will not have a hand in something which goes against Torah values."

Conservative and Reform Judaism are not really gaining traction, they have been treading water for a long, long, time. The push behind both movements comes from abroad.

You can't control what different communities do, but you can control what you do and what (and who) you will recognize as legitimate. I would venture to say that most secular Israelis are of the "the shul I don't go to is Orthodox" type, who don't buy oranges on seder plates or women rabbis.

But see, the test isn't the issue here. Nor is equal pay the issue. The whole point is to use the test as a tool to push a specific agenda. At the very least, be honest and admit that.

etky

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:21 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

I'm so confused. Can someone explain one thing to me?

According to the new ruling, will women receive semicha or not upon completion of the tests? (I'm not even sure how the men "receive" semicha upon completion of the tests; is it a certificate?)

If the women are receiving a certificate of semicha; I can understand what the argument is.

If women are not receiving semicha, but just a receive a certificate of completion, or a "degree", and can now get better-paying jobs, why would anyone be against that?

(FTR, I am pretty right wing and understand the concern of potential women rabbis. Just don't get why anyone would be upset that women are getting equal pay, if that's all it really comes down to.)

Most (all?) of these women have already graduated as Morot Halacha from various DL scholarly institutions: Midreshet Lindenbaum, Matan, Beith Morasha, Midreshet Ein Hanatziv and probably others. They can choose their own title. Some are known as Rabbanit while others prefer Morat Halacha or Eshet Halacha. The title Rabba is generally avoided because of its association with the Conservative and Reform streams.The rabbinate has for the most part over the years turned a blind eye to this growing phenomenon of women halachic scholars but now this ruling allowing them to take the test and receive the same accreditation as the men means that new positions will open up to them and they will be competing with men for a piece of the pie.

Rappel

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:24 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Anyway, you don't need to sit for the rabbanut exams if you oppose this. This doesn't need to have any affect on your life.

Ah, but I do want to sit the tests. There's the rub.

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said on this thread.

But I don't trust ITIM to do this in a way that the Rabbanut will truly accept, a way that will open public religious roles for women so they can do good.

I think these organizations are making a mediafest to push their own anti-Rabbanut agenda, and that means that the women and girls whom need this will never get to sit these exams. I cannot tell you how frustrating that is to me.

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:25 pm

etky wrote:

Ok these Israeli politics are beyond me. I give up. Enjoy the argument.

Sorry for bothering you, banana123.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:25 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I have to say I'm shocked and appalled at the contempt and denigration here towards women who spend years and years studying Torah.

I highly respect women who have spent years and years studying Torah, provided they have studied it properly and have yirat Shamayim.

And no woman has taken these tests yet, so who exactly am I denigrating?

I could do the tests if I wanted to. I could pass them if I wanted to. The point would be what, exactly? Stature in which community, where? Recognition? I have that already. People know me as smart and knowledgeable. Salary? If I want to put in years of study to get a salary bump, I'll do it in a place that has a good reputation, a Torah atmosphere, and like-minded women with yirat Shamayim - not on my own or in a place that focuses on feminism instead of on Torah.

So what do I gain from testing with the rabbanut? Absolutely nothing. Yallah, nexxxt.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:30 pm

banana123 wrote:

I don't get your arguments here. So you personally gain nothing.

You already know everything; the Rabbanut tests are a joke, you could pass them without studying. Everyone already knows how smart and knowledgeable you are. Yay for you.

Other women do think they have something to gain by taking the Rabbanut exam, and it is their right to do so.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:37 pm

Rappel wrote:

IF the test becomes available to women, ALL women will be able to sit for them, including you.
There won't be a sign on the front door saying 'Only Rabid Feminists With an Agenda Allowed In'.

And you know what, many things and changes were initiated by 'feminists with an agenda'. The right to vote. The right to own property. The right to equal pay. The right to not get fired when you get pregnant. The right to say no to s@x, even if it's your own husband (yes, once upon a time marital rape was not a crime). Lots of people opposed these things, because 'feminists with an agenda' were pushing them. But bottom line, decades later, all women enjoy these rights.

I am sure that a lot of women who right now are opposing this because it seems so 'fringe' and feminist, will come around in a few years, and be proud if their daughters or granddaughters go this route.

banana123

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:44 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Okay, lady.

1) I never said I could pass WITHOUT studying. Of course I'd have to study, at least some. It's not like I've learned treifot or mikvaot inside.

2) I'm asking what any woman with yirat Shamayim gains from this. She's not going to gain recognition in her community that she doesn't already have. She's not going to gain stature in her community that she doesn't already have. She's not going to gain a salary bump for many more years than it'd take her to do an MA and PhD. What DOES she gain?

She gains - if she tests quietly and doesn't tell people - personal satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment. Okay, so is that worth it? Depends on what else she has on her plate and wants to accomplish, I guess.

The only ones who have something *other* than a personal sense of accomplishment that they don't tell anyone about, are the women who don't have yirat Shamayim in the first place. Meaning, they've tested, that's great, but we don't know if they have any real understanding of what they learned or any yirat Shamayim whatsoever. So it is all about externals: stature, making noise, a political agenda, an ego trip.

You know, not every guy who tests goes around telling people he tested. Most don't. But probably most of the women who test will. It will make noise. That's the point.

3) Like I said, let them test. At the same time, just like I (and the rest of the religious community) don't respect every man who tests just because he tested, I'm (and they're) not about to respect women who test unless the woman proves herself in other ways. In which case, she could prove herself in those ways without testing, and get the same results. Meaning, the test is meaningless and makes no difference whatsoever.

Got it? Great.

I think I'm going to start studying to join Nishmat's next group of yoatzot halacha. Or maybe I'll find something similar from Machon Puah, or actually go for that M.Ed. in Tanach Toshba that I've been dreaming of. Any of those would give me a lot more bang for my buck (and for my time) than a test no one whose opinion matters will see as important.

Rappel

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:45 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

You seem to think I'm ignorant, or possibly a fool. Or you're taking this very personally. Why is that?

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:48 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I totally support it.
There are many women who are very learned today. There is no legal excuse to allow only men to take the test.

The rabbanut desperately needs more women in decision making positions.

They don't need to call them rabbis, of course. But women should also be able to wield influence there. And should have equal access to the salaried positions.

I know I am an outlier on imamother, but many many Israelis agree with me.

So well said.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 3:51 pm

Rappel wrote:

You seem to think I'm ignorant, or possibly a fool. Or you're taking this very personally. Why is that?

I don't think you are an ignorant fool. I just don't understand your arguments (you won't be able to take the test just because feminists pushed for it? I really don't get that, sorry).

And I suppose I am taking your anger towards feminists somewhat personally. It's ok to say you disagree with feminists, it's not ok to say they are ruining everything 'for the rest of us'. We are not your enemy.