Tell me about the draft

amother

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 3:22 pm

Success10 wrote:

You've mentioned he's not cut out for the army. If he has some sort of medical diagnosis that can back that up, that would be the best way out. If you are coming from a Yeshivish mentality, and you are concerned for your son's frumkeit, it's best to speak to an expert from a Yeshivish organization who will not try to convince you that there are no bad influences in the army, there are.
That being said, there are bad influences everywhere, including Yeshiva and college. If your son is not planning on learning full time after age 18, the frum army options might be an inevitable reality, and possibly a great stepping stone for your son. But get educated properly. Not on here.

I have to tell you that some really good information (not necessarily regarding army) are on imamother threads with regards to aliyah. Sometimes better than NBN. Imamother can be a wonderful resource. Especially when you don't even know the right questions to even ask.

amother

Tan

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 3:27 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

How long is army service? If you get a ptur does that mean no college? My son wants college.

If you get a ptor due to being charedi, then no college, because you are supposed to be in yeshiva.

BTW, one can do college before the army ('atuda') and then serve in a unit that uses those skills.
Or if one is in a unit like 8200 (which is incredibly hard to get into) then one can do a degree simultaneous to one's service (the college wants these soldiers, so they have a special program for them, one night a week plus Fridays).

Also, I forgot to say earlier - service is 30 months, but if you are accepted to an elite program in 8200 or elsewhere, you often have to sign on for another couple of years. They invest a ton in teaching these soldiers, and don't want them to leave so quickly. You do get paid a proper salary for the extra years you sign on (much lower than you would in the free market, of course).

amother

Tan

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 3:40 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

We are also thinking of making aliyah, and I have a 6 year old son. Of course the army is a long way off, but he was born with an eye condition that limits his vision in one eye, even with glasses.. I was wondering if anyone knows how that would impact him vis-a-vis the army. Would they reject him outright, put him in a desk job, expect him to fight anyway?
Thank you

I assume he would be rejected outright for any combat positions. They wouldn't expect him to fight, and even if he really wanted to be a combat soldier, I doubt they would accept him (depending on the severity of the limited vision in one eye).

I don't see any reason they would reject him altogether from the army for that though. They would probably put him in a desk job (btw, there is some choice sometimes as to what kind of desk jobs - there are millions of different types, many of them not literally beside a desk).

On the other hand, if this is a condition that requires a lot of care, daily treatment, etc, then they very likely may not want to take responsibility. The army doesn't draft people with complex medical issues (or even serious illnesses that they recovered from), because soldiers are insured under the army, and like any insurance, they aren't willing to take such risks. (These soldiers can volunteer and do regular non-combat service as volunteers, without the insurance).

amother

Mauve

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 4:01 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Be careful about the army
My cousin was in the army (hesder!) started in a black hat ended with a little kippah
and I've seen other cases too

Hiding

That can really happen anywhere. It's true if a boy is in a very close environment and suddenly he is with a mix of people he might find a different path. My son went into a religious unit while he was kind of finding himself and not totally religious at the time.He made some really great friends and grew tremendously in the army and actually became more religious than when he started.

amother

Tan

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 4:04 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Be careful about the army
My cousin was in the army (hesder!) started in a black hat ended with a little kippah
and I've seen other cases too

Hiding

It can happen.

Remember, most charedim don't enlist. So out of ten who are actually brave enough to be nonconformists and enlist, at least half may also have been unhappy with the charedi way of life BEFORE they enlisted.

It's not like you are taking statistics for your typical charedi yeshiva bochur who the army 'ruined'. These people were searching for something else from the beginning.

And of course, many do remain staunchly chareidi.

chanchy123

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 4:09 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

No one is going to make your son participate in combat if he’s not fit. Today the army is pretty easy on rejecting people with slight conditions. Many people I know serve/d as volunteers (DH was a volunteer), this way they have some exemptions (sometimes they can live at home or are not required to wear full regulation uniforms) they are free to terminate their service at will and aren’t called up for reserve duty

Success10

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 4:23 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Imamother can be an amazing source of information, from real life women living here, spanning the spectrum. But the army is a sensitive subject, and asking how to avoid the draft even more so. Many people here will not respect your wishes to avoid the army, and they may very well be offended by it, so it might taint some of the answers you are getting. That's why I suggest verifying in real life who you are getting advice from, and potentially turning to an organization that deals with this regularly and understands and respects your concerns.

amother

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 4:50 pm

Success10 wrote:

I'm not asking how to dodge the draft. I don't know what I want for my son. I want to know all the options out there. When I say that my son is not cut out for the army it is not because he has medical issues. He is a bookworm. He loves to learn. I guess it also bothers me that the army takes them at 18. I think that's too young. Someone upthread said you can go to college first, that's good to know. Maybe I want my son to learn until 22 first, I dont know . it would also depends what my son wants at that point too. Regardless, I need information and know options. I'm considering aliyah. It is not a given. I'm not even up to making phone calls yet. I'm just gathering info for myself. Now can this all snowball into a full fledged aliyah plan? Absolutely. But not yet. Thank you to all who contributed information to this thread. Please keep more info coming!

amother

Tan

Tue, Jul 28 2020, 4:59 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes, that was me.
It's called עתודה. You can't decide you want to study basket weaving - it needs to be something the army has use for.
If your son is exceptionally smart, they will pay for his degree. Otherwise, he pays, but they defer his service until he completes the degree, and they try to give him a position that uses his degree. This way he completes the army with real job experience.
You can even become a medical doctor through atuda.

If I'm not mistaken, some forms of atuda require signing on 1-3 extra years in the army (you are paid a proper salary during those extra years).

ETA - if your son is 100% healthy, then there is a chance they will want him for combat. If he's exceptionally skilled/intelligent then he may have other options presented to him, but it's not a given.

Maybe someone else here knows if a healthy young man enlists, can he insist on atuda, or can they insist he do combat? Not sure about that.

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 12:16 am

You cant choose to do atuda. you have to be accepted and it's not that easy to get in, especially if you're coming from a chareidi or torani school. you basically need to decide in 9th or 10th grade that that's the path you want and you need enough credits in physics, math and computers to even be considered for it. There is a mechina program which you can take (like 13th grade) to help you prepare to get in, but that's not a guarantee either. My DS did this and he still didnt get in to atuda.

That being said, most religious kids dont draft at 18. Anyone can defer for a year and go to any kind of mechina. religious, non religious, etc. If your son goes to a religious HS of any stream, they will encourage mechina.
If he wants to spend even more time in yeshiva, he can do hesder. What's really great about hesder is that the boys stay together during their service and the rebbeim from yeshiva are in close contact with them.

My DS1 got a ptur from combat because he gets migraines. He has a "desk job " but it's very high level with a lot of responsibility and he's learning a lot. He is considering signing on for keva but even if he doesn't, he is getting a ton of experience and making contacts that will serve him well in the future.
He's about halfway through his service.

DS2 is officially a lochem but he's not in a position on the front lines. He finished basic training and just started his actual service.

Going anon because of identifying info but happy to discuss more over PM if anyone wants. Post here and I'll PM you or I'll post under my SN.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 31 2020, 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total

rivkam

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 12:19 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Remember in israel its the norm to go to the army. So you have all types of personalities. The army isnt made up of the stereotypical people you would think would be soldiers. DH is so not the stereotypical type. He did a hesder program and being in the army didnt make him any less religious (because it was hesder, he only went to the army at around age 20/21).

As for the being scared as a parent of your child being in the army, it's totally normal. I think it's harder for parents who are chutznik. I worry about DH abit when hes in miluim but normally I'm too preoccupied trying to manage on my own

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 12:33 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I'll tell you a secret- not all recruits are macho gun wielding soldiers. My husband (who I spoke about earlier in the thread working as a computer programmer) is, with all due respect, a nerd. So were the guys in his office. But they were bad@ss nerds who contributed greatly in their own way to EY and my DH says many times how the experience of kurs katzin (a course to become an officer) really developed him personally with how to deal with and manage people, which are skills for life which, to be fair, he wouldn't have learned sitting in yeshiva.

Keep in mind though that the army decides where your son ends up. Not him, not mom. Many people struggle with this. So he could be in an elite unit. Or he may be doing something very menial. But the army tries its best to match people according to their abilities. DH said that throughout the latter years of highschool the army already started hand picking individuals and testing them (physically and academically). He even has a bizarre story of being put on a simulation boat and being rocked around with a bunch of guys to see who wouldn't vomit lol (must be said, all volunteered to do this because it was for an elite naval unit). Can't guarantee where your son will end up. Also can't guarantee that if he'll be in a religious unit he'll be the better for it (my DH was not in a religious unit and said he was all the better for it).

There's a lot of 'shlichut' in the army. Only you and your son know if he's the kind of guy who can come to strengthen himself and others around him and make his base a more torahdik environment or if he's easily swayed and easily tempted from the Torah path.

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 12:41 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Yes yes yes. I agree 100%

DS1 is not in a religious unit and I think he is better for it. He is not cut out for hesder and hes doing really well in the army.
Davening 3x a day, answering questions from non religious soldiers, speaks to the Rav on base all the time, etc.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 31 2020, 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total

DrMom

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 12:47 am

The IDF tries pretty hard to assign each recruit a role that is compatible with his/her abilities and desires. There are exams and courses and an entire process designed to match recruits with an appropriate role.

It is very unlikely that a kid with a low physical profile and excellent math skills will be assigned a role as a tank commander or a gun-runner. That would not be to anybody's advantage.

The army is a huge organization, not just front-line combat units supported by a few guys at desk jobs like some scene from *M*A*S*H*. There are productive roles for just about anybody with talent.

Edited to fix typos

Last edited by DrMom on Wed, Jul 29 2020, 4:59 am; edited 1 time in total

someone

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 1:01 am

I just want to add to what everyone here has said. The army is an enormous operation, with jobs of all kinds that you can't even imagine being connected to army service. Just for example - my brother in law spent his army service writing material to educate irreligious soldiers about Judaism. He was part of a unit in the military rabbinate.
Just to try and make things clearer - every Israeli boy/girl receives a tzav giyus, a callup letter when they are around 17. That is the initial contact between the army and the potential soldier. They can go and start an initial process of figuring out where they would want to serve, and going to interviews or assessments, or they can defer service. For example, a boy who is going to learn full time in yeshiva will get a deferral called תורתו אומנתו. He can keep on renewing that deferral for as long as he keeps on learning full time.
When he does decide to join, there are different tracks he can join, with different lengths of service. Everyone has to do basic training in theory, but basic training for non-combat soldiers is, um, not exactly very intense.
The army has a whole system of figuring out where is right for each person to serve. Because most people in Israel are in the army that obviously means that all the non-soldier types are also soldiers. A lot of them are in the intelligence unit, I know a lot of frum guys who go into the military rabbinut, etc.
I think that when you look at it from the perspective of someone living in America it must seem nuts and very daunting to figure out what your son would want to do, etc. But here it's part of life, its something that everyone deals with from one perspective or another, and at every stage your son would have people with experience in these issues who would be able to advise him.

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 29 2020, 1:06 am

someone wrote:

You made a great point that I forgot to mention. If your son is in a DL or Chardal or torain school all his teachers will have served and have experience in guiding boys re: the army. Theres also an amazing Facebook group for parents of anglo soldiers. You will most likely have neighbors who have served.
You will have a lot of support.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 31 2020, 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total