Does hashem want different things from different communities

behappy2

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:11 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Words like "minhag, eilu v'eilu, and shivim panim l'torah, all seem like fallback answers to attempt to explain why it's ok that we are all doing different things yet somehow we are all doing it correctly.

Does hashem mind if I wear a long sheital? Does hashem mind if I listen to secular music? My rav says it's ok, your says it's not. They're both right? I used to work with a very modern women who would leave her TV on before shabbos. I have no idea if she asked a rabbi (probably not) but in her community this is not a big deal. Is there a reference in the torah of different minhagim and of people actually doing things differently?

There are diff levels of Avodas Hashem. I.e. it's not a mitzvah to listen to secular music. Some ppl are on the madreigah of not listening and kudos to them. It's not assur either. However when someone is down it can lift them up and make them a better mother, wife etc..also diff communities stress diff things. Nobody can do it all (though everyone likes to believe that their community has it all!) So some stress tznius, some shalom bayis, some Torah, some chessed, some Derech Eretz . Together we bring this all to Hashem and present him with a beautiful garden full of a variety of flowers.

Each person though needs to follow a derech that matches his shoresh neshama. A good Rav will help a person find the right path for himself.

Jeanette

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:15 am

Quote:

It's not a fallback.

It's the reality.

Hashem created multiple pathways in serving Hashem and all are valid.

I know that if you grew up keeping CY or covering your hair in a certain way then it's hard to imagine that people who do things differently are also keeping halachah. Especially when there's a certain amount of sacrifice involved. Like, why can't I have those chocolates if other Jews eat them and they're doing just fine?

My son once came home from school with a Pesach coloring book and singing a song that said, "Round matzos are for Pesach, square matzos are chometz." Ridiculous! Yes, that teacher got a call from me. We only use round matzos on Pesach. That doesn't mean that fine Jews using square matzos are eating chometz on Pesach.

If you're not comfortable with your derech you can have a discussion with the Rav of your choice and figure out a path for you. It may mean facing some pushback or resistance within your community and you have to decide how you want to handle that. But choosing your own path in avodas Hashem doesn't mean that you're going against His will.

amother

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:22 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Of course there are many people that believe their way of living frumkeit is the only way.
But that would be wrong and unfortunate.
I know another shita, where for ME my way of frumkeit is right, but for joe shmoe over there his way is right.
Its not all black and white, lots and lots of grey. And there are so many different drachim to live judausm. Not just one. Never was only one way.

So theoretically 3 women have the exact same bedika cloth that is a shayla.

The first woman asks her rav who says mutter.
The second woman asks her rav and he says assur.
The third women grew up in an environment where you don't ask shaylos, so she does the best she can and decides it's mutter.

So to me this scenario is unfortunate and seemingly describes an imperfection in our system. I don't believe that hashem wants the first woman to be mutter and the second woman to be assur. It wouldn't make sense considering they are in the exact same circumstance.

Taking it further, if the second woman who received an assur psak decides she will ignore the psak, will she get an onesh for it? The first rav said it's perfectly ok! I'm curious to know whether you believe hashem will punish this second woman.

What about the way woman dress. 75 years ago, bais yackov girls and their teachers wouldn't cover their elbows. It was not necessary. Short sleeves were still in compliance with fully tznius. It seems sometime around 1980 hashem changed his mind and decided that to conform with tznius, women must cover their elbows. Both era's were right? You see this as 2 drachim, I see this as we are throwing darts blindfolded.

behappy2

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:25 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Are you truly looking for an answer or are you mad that you need to do things that other ppl don't? Be honest with yourself.

sequoia

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:30 am

Ouch...

OP, can you mentally weed out the important stuff from the superfluous stuff?

Complex systems with many variables can be frustrating.

One thing for certain — we don’t see any reward or punishment in this life.

And the Creator knows your heart.

Don’t focus so much on extraneous details, or on schar v’onesh. We’re all trying to be good people and good Jews. We’re social creatures, we need community, we need the company of others, so if it involves a certain sleeve length, so be it.

tigerwife

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:30 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

1. Who says the rav who said it’s assur is correct? Perhaps it was a rare situation he wasn’t familiar with as he only has 5 years of experience paskening, while the first rav was doing this for thirty years?

2. Just because many women wore short sleeves, doesn’t mean the Halacha changed. I can’t comment on whether it was right or wrong as I am not a halachic authority, but through the ages there have been various aveiros that were done on a communal level, why would that mean that it was fine then but now it’s not? I think we can all sympathize with American Jews who worked on shabbos to feed their starving families, but that doesn’t mean breaking shabbos was ok.

As for the original question, I do think that each Jew has their own path. On a communal level, it’s hard to discern. But concepts like long wigs or listening to secular music are not halachic discussions, but hashkafic. If you believe secular music might have a negative influence on the neshama, it won’t matter which sect you come from. If everyone in your community wears short wigs, and you have a long one, perhaps the issue is overriding minhag hamakom and not something inherently wrong with the wig.

lilies

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:31 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

There is a concept of H' giving dayanim the power of decision.
The shayla becomes muttar for the woman whose Rav said muttar.
It becomes assur for the woman who was told it's assur.
The third woman is a different category.

silverlining3

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:33 am

Just like we're all born into different families with different perspectives in life, for reasons only Hashem knows, but ultimately (hopefully) have the same goal, grow up, get married, and raise a family, Hashem put us all in different communities with ultimately the same goal, to serve him, each on their level.

How's it that things that weren't heard of years back is now so okay? Generations change and yes, rabbanim paskin accordingly, every family, community on their level. Hashem still wants the same thing from us as he wanted from our grandparents and great-grandparents, to serve him on our level. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Everyone is good in their own ways.

Mommyg8

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:34 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

You are talking about two separate issues - a Rav paskening shaylos and people do whatever they do. Two completely separate things.

As for the shayla thing - yes, it's says clearly in the Torah - "lo bashamayim hi" - Hashem gave the power to pasken to the Rabbanim. Sometimes Rabbanim make mistakes - they really do - but if they are real, and not making a mistake, you have to follow the psak you were given. In the thread you are referring to, the OP did have a different Rav - in the same community - who was much more lenient. (OT, but in my experience, the Rav will say - I can't pasken on this, take this to another Rav, but he won't say it's no good, because that will make it no good).

As for people doing things without asking - is that really a question? Lots of people do lots of things without asking. They may (mistakenly) think there is no reason to ask as there isn't a problem. I'm sure I've been guilty of this many times... most of us do this at some point in time. Is that really related to the "different Rabbanim pasken differently"? I don't see how.

Mommyg8

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 11:41 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It's muttar for the first woman, assur for the second, and like I said earlier, the third situation is not related to the first tow.

amother [ OP ] wrote:

So to me this scenario is unfortunate and seemingly describes an imperfection in our system. I don't believe that hashem wants the first woman to be mutter and the second woman to be assur. It wouldn't make sense considering they are in the exact same circumstance.

This is why I think women should really learn gemarah, to understand the process of how halachic responsa are created.

This is not an imperfection at all, it describes a beautiful system where people get to make choices.

And yes, if we believe in hashgacha, totally Hashem wants the first woman to be muttar and the second to be assur. BUT... and this is a big BUT... if the second Rav was correct. If he made a mistake, that's a real issue. And like I said earlier, many Rabbanim will say - I can't pasken this and bring it to someone else.

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Taking it further, if the second woman who received an assur psak decides she will ignore the psak, will she get an onesh for it? The first rav said it's perfectly ok! I'm curious to know whether you believe hashem will punish this second woman.

Yes, absolutely. That's how it works. When a Rav says kosher it's kosher. When a Rav says treif it's treif. Hashem gave Rabbanim the power.

BTW, it's the same by the mikvah. When the mikvah lady says "Kosher" - that makes it kosher. That's why she's supposed to say it out loud.

amother [ OP ] wrote:

What about the way woman dress. 75 years ago, bais yackov girls and their teachers wouldn't cover their elbows. It was not necessary. Short sleeves were still in compliance with fully tznius. It seems sometime around 1980 hashem changed his mind and decided that to conform with tznius, women must cover their elbows. Both era's were right? You see this as 2 drachim, I see this as we are throwing darts blindfolded.

Just because people didn't always follow everything didn't make it right. I'm not Hashem and He also hasn't shared with me how exactly he rewards and punishes, but right is right and wrong is wrong. Even if nobody follow the right way, it's still right.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 4:22 pm

OP wrote:

Quote:

I dont see whats wrong with having 3 different outcomes. Each woman will have their own specifics that may literally be why the answers are different.
Also, for the 3rd woman, maybe she learned the halachot and knows what to do and that is why she never asks shaylot.

Quote:

If a woman asks a shayla and then does the opposite, I would think she would be punished. If one wont listen to the rav anyway, then dont ask, but if you ask, you really should listen.

Quote:

No, this is wrong. Tzniut never changed. People jsut learned more as the years went on. And no, it was way before 1980 that tzniut became this big thing in some communities.
And why can there not be more than one derech? We were all at har sinai and we were 12 shvatim crossing the yam suf. There have to be more than one drech. It would not make sense for every jew to follow the exact same path as their fellow Jew. Thats not how judaism works.

Cheiny

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 4:26 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Reading the thread about a woman with a strict dayan makes me wonder about the sensibility of the whole shayla system. When a rav paskens a shaiyla, he is answering what he believes hashem wants.

It seems incredibly strange and far fetched that hashem truly wants different things from the women in Monroe or williamsburg, than from the women in flatbush or elsewhere. So after 120 we all go up and there and 2 women who had the exact same shayla, 1 asked her rav in Willy, and the other asked her young israel rabbi, and hashem wants both these women to proceed differently, even though they had the same shayla, both followed halacha perfectly by following their rabbi even though they had the opposite psak?

Does this make sense?

Everyone’s personal situation Is different and therefore two people asking what seems to be the same shayla might get two different answers. Your view is very simplistic.

Mommyg8

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 6:51 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

OP wrote:

Quote:

If a woman asks a shayla and then does the opposite, I would think she would be punished. If one wont listen to the rav anyway, then dont ask, but if you ask, you really should listen.

Quote:

Wow, Shabbat, I can't believe we agree!!! Very well said.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 6:56 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Your first line is already a problem, no three people or 2 people have the same ex at anything

amother

cornflower

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 8:02 pm

The area of tznius doesnt have minhagim. The more a woman is covered and the less attractive she is to a man the more modest she is.
The problem is how tznius has been reinvented today. Its become feel good to make women feel good about themselves and justify what they wear and make it in to a mitzvah. A wig (short or long) is not a minhag, it was a breach from the mesorah of wearing a tichel. For thousands of years jewish women only wore tichels. Wigs came in from the non jews because of the reform movement. It was taken from the non jews. In the times of the gemara jewish women used to only wear wigs in the house to beautify themselves for their husbands and they always fully covered their wigs and hair with a kerchief when leaving the house.
Lets be honesr here- its not a minhag to wear a wig. This couldnt be clearer than today where wigs are fashion accessories for every celebrity. They are only worn for beauty and glamour. Hashem commanded us to cover our hair after marriage cuz hair is erva- its a body part that has the potential to cause attraction from men. Covering erva with other erva is not a minhag.

amother

Powderblue

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 9:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I am ultra ultra chassidish and my rav is very very lenient. some very chassidish dayanim are known to be extremely lenient and some are not
but besides for that, I second the one who says mesorah/minhag

soap suds

Tue, Aug 04 2020, 9:28 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Hashem wants the same thing from each woman. He wants her to make the right choice. In this case, the right choice would be to follow daas Torah. So, yea, each one will have different outcomes, but in reality they’re both doing the same thing - following their psak.

Why can’t it be that Hashem wants one woman to be assur and the other mutter? It happens all the time. Sometimes by one woman bleeding while the other isn’t, and sometimes by one woman’s rav paskening a certain way.

As to whether she’ll be punished for ignoring her rav’s psak - I’m not Hashem, and I don’t profess to know how He works out schar veonesh. But I believe that she is doing the wrong thing, because her job is to follow the psak SHE was given, regardless what some other rav said.