Does hashem want different things from different communities

amother

cornflower

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:07 pm

Im not suggesting we dont listen to Rabbanim but you also need to use your own seichel. Not every rav is well versed in every subject. When you have a kashrus question you would call ou or another Rav that ia very informed on kashrus. The same with taharas hamishpacha- one only asks competent Rabbanim that are very informed in this area.
Many Rabbanim have not studied the topic of wigs. Plus its our particular area of importance. Tznius and kisui rosh is something women could research independently if they are really interested in knowing the emes. 100 years ago there were Rebbetzins that didnt cover their hair! Does that mean you should follow what they did? Tznius and kisui rosh are not a chok. This is why we are supposed to learn the reasons for mitzvos (if they are not a chok)- so they can be kept properly.
Tznius and kisui rosh are not in the same category as a kashrus or nida question. Women should educate themselves as much as they can about this mitzvah, especially since its so important to Hashem and its done every second of the day.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:16 pm

Women wore long skirts until the past century. It was actually an act of rebellion when women started wearing above the ankle skirts- im talking about in the secular world! Obviously the more the leg is covered the more modest (im not talking tight skirts which are inappropriate long or short). If a skirt is long and not tight its the most modest. Its a shtus to say this is modern. (I know some people claim this) Again another distortion of the truth. The knee is covered better at all times and there are actually some opinions that the shok is the lower leg and needs to be fully covered.
A kol korei came out this year signed by over 40 respected rabbanim stating that a skirt to the ankle is ideal and might even be halacha according to some poskim. Rav chaim kanievsky shlita came out this past year stating this about the long skirts. There are actually seminaries in israel now where the girls are required to wear ankle length skirts. Its not a minhag- its just more modest.

amother

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:16 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Please please dont bring the topic of wigs and tznius in to this conversation. If a woman doesnt cover her hair and than goes and buys a wig that looks nicer than her hair she does not receive tons of schar- this is a real sheker promoted again to make people feel good. She is now enchancing her appearance and that is the complete opposite of the whole purpose of the head covering. You can't make a blanket statement like that about wigs. If a woman puts on a wiggy wig that detracts from her beauty thats fulfilling the point of the mitzvah. Im not saying we should be judging anyone but please lets call a spade a spade- most of todays wigs are fashion accessories. Thats it. Hashem commanded us to cover our hair as married women- there are countless sources explaining the point of the mitzvah which is to conceal a womans main beauty, her hair, from other men. Putting nice hair on top of hair is defeating the whole point. Its hypocritical and making a joke out of the mitzvah. Hashem didnt command women to cut their hair short in to nice refined hair styles! We were commanded to cover the beauty of our hair with an obvious less beautiful head covering.
Tznius in general doesnt have minhagim, the more covered up, the less attracting to men - the more modest. It has nothing to do with minhagim. Hashem loves modesty- its the most important mitzvah for a woman (its compared to a man's torah learning). The more modest we are the better.

First of all hashem didn't command us to cover our hair. We learn it from a reference from a Sotah. She is told to take off her head covering. We learn out that women should cover their hair. Many in the young Israel crown hold women do not need to cover their hair. The pasuk was just going thru the process of explaining the events of a sotah, and since women wore head coverings, she would remove it. According to everyone on this board, everyone is correct. The more frum women must cover their hair. It might be a d'oraiysa. The more modern women don't have that commandment. They have an opposite derech that is equally correct.

amother

Copper

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:32 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Untrue.
Very misleading post.
The point of a sheitel is not to detract from a women's beauty- it is to cover your hair.
The point of tznius is not to be ugly- but to be dressed in respectable dignified way.
Tznius and modest does not mean frumpy. Have you never seen someone dressed beautifully and tzniusly?

dankbar

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:32 pm

A kol korei came out this year signed by over 40 respected rabbanim stating that a skirt to the ankle is ideal and might even be halacha according to some poskim. Rav chaim kanievsky shlita came out this past year stating this about the long skirts. There are actually seminaries in israel now where the girls are required to wear ankle length skirts. Its not a minhag- its just more modest.[/quote]

In my community there are kol korahs about not wearing long robes in the street....just saying

Long skirts are considered more modern by some

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:36 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Look at the thread you started a few days ago. You argued that children conceived during nidah and without regard to taharas hamishpacha should not be considered flawed in any way. (By the way I agree with you.) But there are rabbanim who hold that the neshama of these babies have a blemish. Therefore it is better not to marry them. This is what they hold. This is what they were taught. You say.....they are wrong. You are not saying that there are several drachim, all are beautiful. You're saying your derech is correct and beautiful, and theirs is wrong. I can probably find 5 posts a day on this site where people argue and believe they are correct and other drachim are all wrong.

So why don't you say that people who have a minhag not to marry a person whose parents weren't frum because they might have been conceived during nidah have a beautiful (albeit different) derech?

Op, the thread about nidda status and conceiving was NOT about halacha and different drachim with halacha. That had zero to do with halacha.
Your examples in this thread are all about halacha. Its not the same.

amother

Copper

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:36 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

And one more time for emphasis- if a woman who does not cover her hair buys a sheitel- any kind if sheitel- and covers her hair, she fulfills the very special mitzva of covering her hair!
Starting to cover hair is an awesome beautiful mitzva which has so much power and brings so many brochos to the woman's family!

amother

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:37 pm

dankbar wrote:

In my community there are kol korahs about not wearing long robes in the street....just saying

Long skirts are considered more modern by some[/quote]

How could it be halacha if the rabbanim in my neighborhood hold around the knee is fine?

Unless you say that different communities have different halachos.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 12:39 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Where in the world did you learn that a woman must detract from their beauty in order to fulfill the mitzvah of covering their hair? Thsts complete narishkeit and fear mongering.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:09 pm

Why do you think we are supposed to cover our hair as married women?? To be uncomfortable??
There are many torah sources that explain how the hair of a married woman becomes erva after marriage. I could list them but I dont think womem are interested (let me know if you would like and ill post some of them)
One - saar bieisha erva. The definition of erva according to everyone is a body part that could cause attraction to men. Thats why these parts need to be covered when a man says words of kedusha. A married womans hair is called erva- it needs to be covered like elbows and knees. The whole reason for the mitzvah is modesty
And yes everyone could be in denial about the mitzvah of tznius but the main point of tznius and hair covering is to prevent procovative attention from men. Thats why in private or in front of women there is no actual halacha of tznius and hair covering.
Modesty doesnt mean frumpy- it means dignified, regal, neat and not attracting to men. The term beautiful today according to secular society usually indicates not modest. We are supposed to be beautiful at home for our husbands. Not in the streets.
The more modest a woman is the more schar she gets and the happier she makes Hashem.
Long skirts are not modern and its illogical to say that unless the skirt is tight. There are seforim now available about this topic. And covering your hair with a pretty wig is not modest- I think women should be honest here. If you went to hollywood and asked the actresses there if they are wearing their wigs for modesty they would laugh in your face! Short or long they are wearing wigs to look better and for glamour.
A woman who is wearing a nice wig is not going to get the same schar as a woman who wears a tichel. She might not get any schar if she is causing more men to look at her. Many Gedolin have said this too.
Women want to wear nice wigs- fine- but please dont make it in to a big mitzvah. I know so many people who were turned off from orthodoxy because of the hypocricy of todays wigs.

amother

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:18 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Where in the world did you learn that a woman must detract from their beauty in order to fulfill the mitzvah of covering their hair? Thsts complete narishkeit and fear mongering.

I'm trying to understand your bigger point within the context of this specific situation.

Maybe her rav holds that part of a woman's obligation is to cover her hair in a way that she's not so attractive. This will make her less likely to sin.

I'm trying to understand where to draw the line. It seems sometimes we allow for different drachim that are completely opposite each other, and other times (like now) we say the other derech is wrong. So if I tell you I let my small kids ride bikes on shabbos, that's a wonderful different derech. If I tell you that my rav said not to wear a fancy shaitel because it might attract men, that's not an acceptable different derech.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:33 pm

Tznius is the most inportant mitzvah a woman has. When Hashem created chava the only statement he made over every limb was she should be a modest woman over and over again.
It is the only mitzvah woman do every second of the day and it affects everyone around her. The peleh yoetz said that the majority of a womand reward and punishment in the next world is based on her modesty. The vilna goan said that a womans modesty is equivelent to a mans torah learning.
Anyways you could tell how important the topic is by the reaction to the topic- it is also the hardest mitzvah for women to do properly. Its the biggest sacrifice for a woman to downplay her looks outside.
In addition the only time in the torah where it says Hashem leaves us is in devarim where is says that Hashem leaves when our camps are not holy. Thats pretty bad
The chofetz chaim said that the final war before moshiach comes will be between modesty and immodesty. This is so clear today!

amother

cornflower

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 1:37 pm

Other halachic topics ars different than tznius and kisui rosh.
Thats why I asked they they not be brought up here as different minhagin.
There is no minhag or mesorah to wear todays wigs. The more the head is covered with cloth properly the better (or wear a very wiggy obvious looking wig). The longer the skirt the more modest. The more modest the more Hashem is happy and the greater the reward.
Please just leave this topic out of the conversation.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 2:43 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Im truly sorry that you learned that that is the reason why we married women cover their hair. That is a flowery definition, not the actual reason. It has nothing to do with the reason why we are covering our hair. We are not doing this so that another man, other than our husbands find us attractive and it definitely has nothing to do with being provocative. Please educate yourself.
We cover our hair literally because hair is considered erva once a married woman is no longer a virgin and so hair becomes like other parts of the body that one must cover for modesty reasons, like the chest and nether regions. Nothing to do with other men. And nothing to do with provocation.

In regards to your opinion (or the rabbanim that you follow) about wigs and the prettier the wig the less schar you will get for covering, what a bunch of hog wash. So your rav says no to such wigs. Other women live in communities where it is fine. Please, dont make a general blanket statement like that. As this thread is all about, there is not just one way to hold of a mitzvah. And I say this about wigs as a woman who never wore one and plans to never wear one.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 2:46 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Again, where and when did hashem say, while creating chava, that she should be a modest woman. Dont forget, before adam and chava sinned, they were literally naked.
And no, women have three important mitzvot, each one just as important.

Mommyg8

Wed, Aug 05 2020, 2:49 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

It's a midrash.

But hah, that's an interesting point. They WERE literally naked, weren't they?

AFAIK women have 613 mitvos, just like men. (Just like men can't do all 613, especially today, neither can women etc. but since we are all part of klal Yisroel and we're all connected, we all get part of that...)