“Camp is not a luxury. It is a necessity.”

amother

Blue

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 1:25 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Can I just say this once and for all: Nobody is saying that kids in special circumstances can't have camp. Literally NOBODY is saying that. Give me one quote, I'll wait...

What we are talking about is the vast majority of perfectly normal (B'H) kids, who are at loose ends.

A normal, well adjusted child is not going to go OTD just because they missed color war this year. A normal child is not going to have to repeat 3 grades just because they got a bit behind in their learning. A normal child who is "hanging out" is not going to start up with drinking, drugs, and mixed dancing. If you are worried about these things, then you have bigger problems, and camp is not going to fix that.

Kids need a loose framework for summer structure. Give them a chart of things that need to be done everyday, and then the rest can be free play, online learning, a new hobby, doing crafts, or shmoozing with a friend. If your kid has no friends within walking distance, then work something out with the other parents.

Buy popsicles, or make your own. Find someone with a back yard, and turn on the sprinklers. Have your older boys get a chavrusa. Throw a DIY pizza party. Teach the younger kids how to handle a kitchen knife properly. Play Scrabble!

Google "fun free summer projects", and then let your kids pick their own activities. It will be much healthier for them to use their brains and creativity. They should challenge themselves to come up with something that will work, and they should get lots of praise for being independent and smart.

When my sister and I were little, we could play happily for hours with a couple of sticks, some rocks, and a mud puddle. We weren't poor, we had nice toys, but we loved to use our imagination. It's becoming a lost art, and it's sad.

Sorry this sounds good in theory but not practical or realistic for 10+ weeks 9 am-9 pm.

amother

Slategray

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 1:56 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

each to its own.

Camp was a necessity for my daughter. Everyone has different children, and different needs.

Seeing my nieces running around Chofesh Gadol, all over the country, every which way, I think a bit of camp would do them good, even if it is just for two weeks.

Necessary as in she will die ch'v without it? Or just need more structure, be bored, feel lonely, etc?

amother

Papaya

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 2:31 pm

Honestly never understood the obsession with camp in frum circles, was recently reading a magazine talking about how the lack of summer camps is going to destroy children.

If we’re that concerned about children being emotionally scarred by not going to camp, I think there are some problems that need to be addressed. I’m a BT and I never once went to sleep away camp as a kid. Summers were for family trips and I have amazing memories. And these weren’t fancy trips- they were road trips, camping, cheap hotels, etc. You don’t need to be in a camp to have a good summer. Do people just not want to watch their kids during the summer, is that what it is?

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 2:37 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

I think several here have made it clear that if someone isn't FFB, urban, and militantly anti-BC that they won't get why camp is so important, because clearly everyone else just has non-jewish ideals.

But, yes, I also wonder what the deal is too. But, I'm not FFB, urban, or militantly anti-BC, so that must be why I don't get it.

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 2:39 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

I'm also a BT and I went to sleep away camp from the age of 9 through 12 and then I worked in camps. Family trips are also wonderful but they don't take up the whole summer.
Just like frum people feel that their best shot at selling frumkeit to kids happens at camp, non-frum communities also heavily rely on camps and it was big news in the non-frum media when non Orthodox camps declined to open this year. It affected thousands of kids.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 2:42 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

Sorry this sounds good in theory but not practical or realistic for 10+ weeks 9 am-9 pm.

Generations of kids have survived this level of abuse and neglect, and somehow most of us made it out alive.

On the other hand, the one time I went to camp when I was 12, I got molested. The camp director had given one of his "friends" free range around all of the girls, and he would find the loners like me, and take a special interest. I spent the rest of camp being even more withdrawn, trying to find hiding places where he wouldn't find me. Group activities on the main field were out of the question. I'd be too easy to spot.

Looking back, that guy had nothing to do with running the camp. He didn't have a job, he was just always there every time you turn around. I wonder how much he paid for the privilege to roam around and bother the girls. He must have thought he was in a candy store. Mad

Ema of 5

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 2:48 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Not everyone is HOME to watch their kids or take them on trips and do fun things with them. This year, more than any other year, many children would have benefitted greatly from getting out and going to camp. No, camp is not a necessity for ALL kids, but it is for many, and even more so this year.

amother

Oak

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 2:50 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I received an email requesting donations for a camp because they operated at a loss this summer. It doesn’t bother me that they sent out the email for donations even if I won’t be donating. But seriously? No it is not a necessity. I know this has been discussed many times here, but this line which was written in the email just really got to me.

What’s next?

“Monthly massages are not a luxury. They’re a necessity.”

“Brand name clothing for my kids from Jewish stores are not a luxury. They’re a necessity.”

“Expensive furniture for my engaged children is not a luxury. It’s a necessity.

“A Doona is not a luxury. It’s a necessity.”

I have no problem with anyone who treats themself to any luxuries. I quite enjoy some of these for myself. But recognize it for what it is.

Forget about it.

Some people will insist that camps are a necessity for them.

Whatever.

I agree with you, they're a luxury. It's an interesting marketing tactic to claim they're a necessity, because you know half your clientele believes that (and half do not, but I guess many of those don't mind). But you'll never manage to convince the "necessity" camp that they would, in fact, survive and maybe even thrive if camps had never existed.

amother

Oak

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:00 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I'd like to understand your point of view better. Can you define what kinds of things your kids suffered from? Are they at all recovered now?

I didn't grow up in a "camp culture", so I really don't get this at all.

My mother would've said that we needed to be in camp.

She hated when we were home for more than a weekend. SHE needed us to be in camp.

We were totally happy to stay home. And I personally hated camp.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:02 pm

I’m going to say camp is Vital in frum Bais Yaakov and Yeshiva circles.

We don’t want our kids roaming the streets. We don’t want our kids sitting and watch TV/using technology all day. Most parents work and do not have the ability to take kids on trips all day.

Kids are needier today then in the 50’s or 60’s. The city is HOT in the summer- there is only so much outdoor ball and activities they can keep busy with. Family vacations are nice but they don’t last more than a week for us since we both work.

I’m not going to put camp in the same category as food, shelter, and clothing but for my kids,
this year, it was vital to their mental health to have a little respite in Sleepaway camp.

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:03 pm

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

When it was clear that chol ha moed Pesach was not happening this year in terms of fun outings, a g'vir in Detroit gave out thousands of bicycles to children in need so that they would have something fun to do. It wasn't life or death but imagine how a disappointed kid could have a decent holiday after all because of a man's kindness. That's the same idea of donating to a camp; possibly unnecessary but can make a difference.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:05 pm

southernbubby wrote:

My kids don't get any chol hamoed outings ever because I work full time and can't take off chol hamoed.

I buy my own kids bikes.

If the parents who would have spent money on outings, instead bought bikes, then that would be parenting. Not, again, relying on someone else to parent.

amother

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:05 pm

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

I’m FFB and live “in town”. Still don’t think it’s a necessity.

amother

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:09 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

For many kids, especially the ones who don't have the loving parents you mention, the necessity for camp is on par with the necessity for schooling - more so this year than any other year. Maybe you don't understand it because you didn't grow up in a troubled home but camp can be a lifesaver for these kids. It can keep them going through the year - and this is during a regular year! Imagine how badly they needed it this year with no other escape from their difficult home situations. And please don't rationalize it by saying it's only a small minority. There are many more than you realize. No one would have guessed when I was a kid that camp was my lifeline.

Besides for that, even for kids from regular homes, it was vital to their mental and emotional health after everything they've endured this year and might still endure after camp.

If this camp is charging $1,300, that's a joke. Any other camp prices I've heard are way higher than that. I would urge you to reconsider donating to such a worthy cause if you have the means to.

Unfortunately I do not have the means to donate to more than our usual tzedakas. Maybe one day.

But it sounds like you are saying that more than a minority of our community have homes without loving parents that children need to escape from. If that is really the case, we are dealing with a huge problem that is a lot bigger than this topic.

amother

Copper

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:12 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Just want to say that that man is a true tzadik!! I know him (and some of his family) personally and they are amazing people.

amother

Oak

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:14 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Kids and teens need to learn how to entertain themselves, just like people have been doing for the past 5780 years. (Unless Adam and Chava's kids should have been in camp. Maybe that would have prevented Cain from killing Abel. They were just really booooooooored!)

Now I'm thinking of all the problems in the Torah that could have been solved, if only klal Isroel were in summer camp... Nah. Kids in the cafeteria would still be complaining about having to eat manna and quail every day. Can't Believe It

I liked your post but.....Kayin and Hevel did not go through childhood. Smile

Ema of 5

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:21 pm

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

He didn’t go around asking people if they would have spent money on trips. The bikes were just for everyone. No one was relying on anyone, no one was expecting anyone to do anything for them. Why must everything be turned into a negative?

amother

Olive

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:22 pm

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

Wow.

Someone does some kindness during an especially trying time for all, and it turns into a bashing of people’s parenting skills?!

One of the beautiful aspects of Frum life is the sense of community that exists.

It’s not each family an island, but each family as a piece of something larger and greater and who look out for each other .

I think it’s a most beautiful thing when we all look out for each other and try to support and help ease things for others.

As another poster said, so much religious and emotional growth happens in the context of sleep away camp.

I wouldn’t say it’s a necessity, by the literal definition, but it can play an integral and important role in a child’s life and overall development.

nchr

Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:25 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

I think the poster missed the comment about kids in need. It was definitely a nice thing to do. I don't like amother's comment that a kid could finally have a decent holiday. You don't need bikes or trips to have a decent or more than decent holiday. We generally do not do Chol Hamoed outings as a matter of principle.

Last edited by nchr on Wed, Aug 19 2020, 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total