New COVID-19 cases in Orthodox communities elicit concern

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 3:40 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Cuomo? There are currently 31 states or territories on NY's quarantine list. NY just took 5 more off the list. Not sure how much stricter you want him to be.

There's no point of states being on the quarantine list when quarantine is not being enforced.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 3:41 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

Folks from identified hotspots do have to quarantine when arriving in/returning to NYS.

Cuomo is reopening/permitting more and more things as time goes on. He just gave permission and associated guidance for fitness facilities to reopen and for certain school sports to resume in the fall.

They "have to" quarantine but it's not being enforced. No one is quarantined and no one is tracking who's traveling into NY.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 3:41 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

There's no point of states being on the quarantine list when quarantine is not being enforced.

How would you have him enforcing it that isn't already currently happening? What do you see as the gap between what is happening and what you think should be?

southernbubby

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 3:44 pm

keym wrote:

This rings true for Murphy in NJ.
He refuses to allow gyms or indoor dining. He refuses to even give a timelineor a metric for what numbers he wants to see.
The restaurant and gym industry is falling apart, having been closed for 5 months by now.
However he has quarantine "recommendations" with absolutely no enforcement.

This is what is problematic; to claim to have control over something that can't be enforced.
At a certain point, shutdowns cause more harm than good and simply drive dangerous behavior underground.
I read an article about shutdowns today and probably, had people never been told to stay home, many would have done so voluntarily and gyms and restaurants would have topped the list of places to avoid.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 3:52 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

How would you have him enforcing it that isn't already currently happening? What do you see as the gap between what is happening and what you think should be?

People flying in to NY can be sent to quarantine hotels or have cops showing up at their doors at random times to make sure they're quarantined. Cops should pull random cars on the highway and fine those that aren't quarantined.
The can do what Israel and Canada are doing.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 3:56 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I don't think the government is set up to make hotels take quarantine folks or pay for it, or require folks to pay for hotels to quarantine. I don't think they legally can or practically can.

They are requiring those arriving by airports to fill out contact information and were doing spot stops to do so on the roads, but NYS is way too big of a state to send state police to do this. I don't think it's a reasonable expectation.

Now, the state has expected residents to report other individuals or businesses who are not complying. Have you been doing that?

amother

Seagreen

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:19 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Quote:

That's crazy! People are free to travel without quarantining and we NY's will suffer the consequences. That's just absurd. How are they planning to control the spread if people are allowed to travel in from hot spots?

Sorry, this is ridiculous. I know of 3 cases currently in my small OOT community. All 3 just traveled home from the tri-state area. That is where they contracted it - not here (here being one of the current states on NYs list for quarantine).
"Shockingly" in some cities people are still being responsible, still wearing masks in shul, schools, stores... if there's an outbreak here it will more likely be from all the people coming home after vacationing in NY/NJ, not the other way around

Sorry, but you are not being responsible if you are travelling to NY/NJ. If you are so concerned then don't go to the tri- state area! Stay home! I think its kind of chutzpah to travel to NY/NJ, and then blame it on NY/NJ when you catch corona there.

pause

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:26 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

Snitching in place of effective laws? No thank you.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:27 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I didn't hear that the state expects one to report on others. I will never report a jew, no matter what the state expects me to do. We have a torah that expects me to do otherwise.

naturalmom5

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:37 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

It's no joke. There are new cases in Boro Park, and one known new case in Wmsbg. The Wmsbg case is a person who traveled out of state and did not quarantine when he returned. Now I just hope and pray that no one in shul caught it and that he has a refuah sheleima b'karov.

BOTTOM LINE

How many Villiamsburgers were put on a respirator de vuch...

southernbubby

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:49 pm

pause wrote:

Snitching in place of effective laws? No thank you.

It would be interesting to know how many people were actually caught or snitched on. I don't think that it's widely enforced because every now I read about somebody's $1000 fine. That doesn't scare away most travelers.
The frum community has the power to stop people from coming to shuls if they are known to have traveled to places with cases (that rhymes). The frum community also has the power to demand masks and social distance if the community chooses to do so. Obviously if nobody cares, then they take a risk.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:50 pm

pause wrote:

Snitching in place of effective laws? No thank you.

Our entire law enforcement system is based on people reporting in good faith suspected criminal activity. If people are not that interested in enforcement of a law, it will be clear when they aren’t requesting it be enforced by giving law enforcement the information they need to do their jobs. We do not live in an environment where police are everywhere all the time or even most places at all.

So if someone wants the law enforced, they need to give the relevant information to the authorities to do so like with most cases of government enforcement of anything.

I’m not going to comment on whether this is mesirah or not. I don’t believe one can both refuse to report illegal behavior and criticize the government for not enforcing the law

amother

Floralwhite

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:54 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

I dont get it. How could anyone know for sure where someone caught it?! How do you know he caught it at the wedding? Maybe he caught it in a gas station, or airplane or any store?

Because he wasn't the only wedding participant at this particular wedding to test positive, though most were relatively young adults with no serious consequences.

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:55 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

In Lakewood it’s absolutely considered mesirah. Guess my hands are tied then Sad

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 4:56 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

Do you report Jews you think are not following the law? Not following Corona guidelines is not criminal behavior. Are you following every guideline?

SixOfWands

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 5:02 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Because he wasn't the only wedding participant at this particular wedding to test positive, though most were relatively young adults with no serious consequences.

Maybe he's the one who infected them.

Without excellent contact tracing -- which we don't have -- no one knows.

amother

Floralwhite

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 5:04 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Maybe he's the one who infected them.

Without excellent contact tracing -- which we don't have -- no one knows.

If it makes you feel better, than use your imagination to your liking. And daven for him while at it.

SixOfWands

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 5:04 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Do you report Jews you think are not following the law? Not following Corona guidelines is not criminal behavior. Are you following every guideline?

Wouldn't it be pikuach nefesh? If, for example, Malky tells you she tested positive, then 2 days later, you see Malky at a simcha without a mask.

NotInNJMommy

Tue, Aug 25 2020, 5:07 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Do you report Jews you think are not following the law? Not following Corona guidelines is not criminal behavior. Are you following every guideline?

In NYS, violating the travel advisory requirements by not quarantining as required is breaking the law. So is having an event with >50 people.

I don’t want to be in a position to know of something that leads to others getting sick but not done anything and I don’t want to call the police on anyone, jewish or not.

I go to work, back home, run errands, don’t go downstate, don’t go to communal events because I don’t want to know anything I would feel responsible for telling someone to do differently or for notifying anyone of enforcement. I know I’m privileged because many can’t just avoid it all. I’m not saying the situation is easy. The point is that one can’t blame the government for not enforcing something that 1) plenty of people aren’t policing each other on and 2) aren’t willing to report to the authorities for enforcement.

So don’t enforce it by peer pressure and don’t inform authorities, but also don’t criticize the government executive for not enforcing. Enforcement requires citizens wanting it enforced, informally or formally.