I'm so fed up!! | Imamother

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 4:29 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I can't debate that issue. I don't know much about it but I will say that I have an autoimmune disorder if that makes a difference and my family that had cancer couldn't be around anyone with a cold.

What about my friend's son who missed a year and a half of yeshiva due to cancer, and he finally got the clearance to go back. He was so excited! He was back for a few days and then the doctors told him he cannot go back until he knows that every single person he comes in contact with, is vaccinated, due to the measles outbreak. Guess what, he was back for a total of 2 weeks, and then had to stay home again only because of unvaccinated children. No, you don't know much about it.

amother

Seafoam

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 4:34 am

I'm a teacher in a Yeshiva where we allowed unvaxxed kids until the government said we couldn't. During the last outbreak I had to tell my principal I would need a leave of absence if it came to our community because I was pregnant and not immune. I've been vaccinated with the MMR more times than anyone you know probably, with titers taken after, but everytime I get pregnant I lose immunity to the measles. In a normal world where everyone who can is vaccinated, I'm safe for the 9 months I lose immunity, but if unvaccinated kids are in schools, I can't be. And I don't know about your schools, but our subs are not well qualified to teach even the 6 week maternity leaves, forget a long medical leave.

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 4:37 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

How about that my dc was home last year for 10 months because dc's school "did" accept the unvaccinated kids & didn't kick them out because they didn't want to fight with their parents to comply to regulations. My dc is immunocompromised due to cancer treatments. When doctor gave us the go ahead to return to school, after being months home, the measles outbreak broke out & after returning for half a day, after months home, dc was back home, for the next couple of months, because of those kids in dc's class who refused to vaccinate.

My child was home for 16 months first due to illness & low immunity following. Then returned to school for couple of months, was home again for half a year due to illness & low immunity & then next couple of months because of "measles outbreak", when was just given the ok to return to school.

My neighbors who didn't vaccinate,sent their children, to play in front of my door, so my dc not only couldn't go to school but not even step out front door.

Because those children who were kicked out or whoever was sick didn't quarantine, my dc needed to. Couldn't go to stores, parks, street, because they were all roaming the streets.

Shul couldn't either go, because same kids from class were there, even if our rabbi gave directives to vaccinate.

After 2 months of being locked into home, due to outbreak, ( following 6 mos home due to illness) finally we found a place we can go, to bubby.
Guess what? Family that doesn't vax, went even if they saw bubby 2 days earlier & got their Chanuka gifts, and they didn't want to back down, when we wanted to go. My dc was so excited, but was crying buckets & couldn't calm down, when we had to change plans.

Whose blood is holier?

Who were the stubborn ones, who weren't considerate?

The same kids & adults were davaning for my child's refuah, but weren't being considerate later on.

I am so sorry for you and your son.
After reading this, it looks like maybe OP, if you're so into playing Gd and saying reasons, look at what she wrote. Her son couldn't go to school, couldn't go to stores, couldn't go to bubby. What did this pandemic cause? People not being able to go to school, not being able to go to stores, not being able to go to bubby

I, in my holy state, say it's midda kneged midda for what all the unvaccinated kids caused for the immonucompromised.

southernbubby

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 5:12 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I think if a parent attends an illegally large event or doesn't wear masks in public indoor spaces or breaks other covid laws then their children should not be welcome in school.

I agree but unfortunately our communal norms are to avoid the secular media and ignore the pandemic. If groups of people want to make home schooling co-ops, they can have whatever standards they choose regarding vaccines and masks.
Schools around here can exclude kids for a number of reasons including having a mother who drives.

amother

Lime

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 5:12 am

Seriously, this is what is called "war mentality". An us vs them. A good guy/ hero vs a bad guy.

V'nishmartem means you must do to protect your health. And that literally is worded openly because the world isnt one size fits all. I think V'Ahavta is more relevent focus here and I mean it both directions. / End of elul rant.

Your very normal neighbors and bretheren have multiple views on what that means. So do their doctors.

For some people vaccines are awesome life savers. They work very well for them. This is a majority of people.

For others in the US, they have the American vaccine court. Because it is fully accepted in the scientific community (I didnt say medical, I said scientific, it is different), that for some people it is due to genetics , detrimental. Politics adds confusion and lobbying adds corruption. But it does not change that some peoples makeups genetically react badly to vaccinations.

Please stop saying that healthy children are catchy if they are unvaccinated. You lose all credibility of logic there. They are only catchy if they are sick. And in the time of catchy epidemics should be decent and caring to their friends and neighbors if it is possible to contract it pre symptomatically if their friends and neighbors cannot be vaccinated due to other circumstances.

To me both small groups are equally important. They both need protecting. They need to care for each other. Those who vax should relax. It is a double layer of protection, Hashem & the vaccines.

Those who dont SD and use masks have lost their right to hate non vaxxed. Logic does not compute AT ALL. Any mathematicians here to demonstrate that?

Frumme, just to point out a correction to your logic. Many many of the unvaxxed have themselves or many family members who are immunocompromised. They are just on a different solution path. You are speaking of many in the same shoes.

I dont subscribe to shul Rabbis calling out midda kneged middah because inevitably someone will be right but most wrong. And we can just do teshuva for everything.

Honestly, I dont think its a huge deal what the schools did by exercising their legal rights. Its a business decision. I think it is a huge deal frum people supported repealling religious freedom in any way at all. I think you can make other private schools who will take the kids in. Or homeschool if it is an option. I dont think the school were right at all it worked fine for all the years til now, there were always those who didnt vax, we all survived, but it was to protect their parnassah, sorry if anyone thought it was to protect anyones health.

I obviously know both sides because I know both types and I support both types. And here I expect to be accused of "if you are religious you are against gay rights". Hamayvin yavin.

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 5:18 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

To be clear I do not think that is why Hashem brought about this terrible tzara. I don't claim to be Gd. Just saying if we're speculating and saying reasons, such as "you didn't let them in your schools so all schools were closed down" then I'll say reasons that sound just the same. No, I don't think that's why, and the quoted post is sarcastic

southernbubby

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 5:41 am

There are some very grave injustices in the world which probably make being rejected from a private school look like a hill of beans in comparison. I don't see too many people taking up causes that either don't benefit them at all or that could cause them harm. I read about an elderly Jewish man who regularly lobbies in Albany for stricter mask and SD enforcement. He obviously is more concerned about being able to safely buy his groceries than about the comfort of people who hate masks. Is someone really expecting him to say, "that's ok, I can just get sick or stay home but it's more important that the young people are happy"?
There are a bunch of protestors in Massachusetts at the moment protesting mandatory flu shots for kids who attend school or day care. Most of those people are not wearing masks and are not social distancing. Now you can argue all day about the effectiveness of any of those measures but teachers and other parents have a right to feel safe at work and these people don't appear to be at all concerned about that when they carry signs saying "my child, my choice." They give the impression that it's all about them and IT TURNS PEOPLE OFF. And then we need to go to bat for them?

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 5:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

He might be right he might not. You are right about that. Vocal is not the issue. Actions speak louder than words.

But, but...I thought it was midah kneged midah for our talking and not showing proper respect in shuls.

I mean no disrespect to Rabbi Brog who is a talmid chochom with important insights. But there is a much more palatable way to frame this: When something happens, we need to look into ourselves and communities in what we can and should repair. And also our successes, to safeguard and grow them. Rabbanim have not just every right but a duty to speak to their kehillos. And thanks to technology, we can all eavesdrop. So as messages are shared on ways to improve, I don't make direct correlations. Contrary to popular belief I'm not a navi.

But there do seem to be some pretty solid connections. Our places of Torah and tefilla have been shut. Let's continue davening and learning, and when they reopen, here are some rules that we are all going to follow to show our love and respect for the mosad, and gratitude to have it back.

As far as schools: Maybe Torah Umesorah can reach out to principals and school owners and implore them to do a cheshbon hanefesh about exclusionary school policies. (It ain't just the vaxing.) But to say, it's your fault? No, whoever writes that TuM memo shouldn't go there.

ETA before this gets locked: I mean no disrespect to Rabbi Brog. I just don't believe his approach is one that the rest of us should try at home.

amother

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 6:33 am

I can't debate vaccines or who's blood is holier or whether or not Rabbi Brog is correct in his statement. I don't know.

I came to see if there is anyone here that has a shred of kindness, sympathy or feels a bit of responsibility. Believe me some years deep deep down I'd like to pick and choose which students can enter my classroom. I don't get that choice though and neither does the school really, because we are responsible for the education of the community.

These children need a proper chinuch. This is not ok. I don't want to step into another school year where my community blatantly disregards their responsibility to educate each child. They were turned away without any consideration for what these children will do for the rest of their education. I didn't see anyone in my school try to work with parents. Something has to be done.

I saw one comment at best that may have shown some sympathy. Hashem yaazor.

freilich

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 6:47 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I clearly have sympathy for these families. I will not deny that. I'm not ashamed of that. I've spoken to these parents and hear why they feel hesitant in my experience (again tiny minority) it's been a medical history related issue. I don't know that they are right but the law doesn't have an issue with their choice I really don't see a reason for my school to.

I'm fuming because a vaccine will come out at the recommendation of officials, it's hypocritical to not want to take it and then judge and condemn those parents because they are hesitant to take a different one that's recommended by said officials. How can you not see that hypocrisy? It's so upsetting. There's no justice here. Crying

There’s a very big difference between taking a vaccine that is so new. It’s normal for people to be afraid of the consequences. No comparison to taking vaccines that have years of science behind it.

As for the message here, I believe there are so many. There was so many ways our lives have changed through covid. Pointing fingers doesn’t get us anywhere. Let’s point our fingers inward to ask ourselves which message “I” need to hear here.

Last edited by freilich on Mon, Aug 31 2020, 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total

thanks

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 7:03 am

I really don't understand this viewpoint. Hasn't corona has taught us the importance of vaccination. Since there is no vaccine for corona yet, we need to shut our shuls, schools, businesses, etc. We should be davening that a safe effective vaccine is discovered so we can all be together again. (or that the virus should vanish. Wouldn't that be great! Of course lets continue to daven for Moshiach to take away all the pain and suffering!)

Children that are not immune to measles cannot come to school and infect others. Immuno-compromised children also unfortunately cannot be in school. Maybe teachers like op will have learned how to include them on zoom, conference call or send home the material. Parents who sent unvaccinated children to school just to have them sent home are at fault here. Not the schools or anyone else that needed to exclude them.

My grandson's shalom zachor was last year, and I made it clear that anyone that is not vaccinated should not come.

Ema of 5

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 7:05 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Just because people chose to discuss other things you wrote in your OP, doesn’t mean they disagree with you. I think keeping kids out of school is terrible. I think something needs to be done about it. However I disagree with your premise, based on what a rabbi said, that what’s happening NOW in the ENTIRE WORLD is because of how a few jewish children were treated.
Also, you made an assertion that you didn’t see anyone from your school trying to work with the parents. Could it be that the parents didn’t want to work with the school? Could it be that things were done behind the scenes that you don’t know about? How would you know of people tried to reach out to parents while you were teaching? How would you know if people tried to reach out to parents during the hours that you are not in school?

southernbubby

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 7:09 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Shouldn't everyone be responsible for public health? Usually people who need advocacy group together and find someone who can intercede. How is the bubby in Monsey supposed to know about the excluded children in Cleveland, much less doing anything to help them get into school? Is it enough to say on imamother, "oh how terrible! Those pro-vax parents, administrators, board members and donors are absolutely evil for excluding any child for any reason?" There, I said it. Now how many non-vaccinated children are waiting for the bus?

amother

Mauve

Mon, Aug 31 2020, 7:39 am

I have a child whom we are
pretty sure was vaccine injured. as in brain damage. before this I fully vaccinated all of my kids, in fact bunches of shots at a time. I thought it was all rubbish. Now after having done extensive research into the topic I can tell you People have no awareness on vaccines. There is plenty of corruption behind the CDC and their studies. They want to promote vaccinations for every child for many reasons among them health, billions of dollars of profit etc etc. There are plenty of studies showing that the toxins in shots can be harmful to genetically vulnerable children, whos parents dont know this. there is also misinformation- when a child gets a vaccine that is when an immunocomprimised child can catch measles from him not from a healthy unvaccinated child. the virus can shed after a vaccine and in fact that is likely how the disneyland outbreak started.
there is no herd immunity. you do realize almost every Mexican and many many people walking down a city street never got a vaccination? a few children whos parents did the research are not the ones bringing back diseases. every parent has a responsibility to do what is best for their own child and for some people that may be not to vaccinate if their child can get harmed. no one has the right to judge if you dont know the facts. the facts are that there is vaccine injury courts for a reason. vaccines can and do damage children and uts not as rare as the CDC wants people to believe.