S/o When does shabbos begin

nchr

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 6:06 am

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

Does someone have a source like from the shulchan aruch about doing malacha after shkia?

There is a machlokes in gemara about when Shabbos starts. One opinion has as late as 50/60 (which equatea to 72 min Motsi Shabbos). Post war there was a compromise to do a machmir start with 18 min and a machmir end with 72 minutes but some rabanim think it's not ideal so always encourage people to light as close to shkiah as possible. The community where DER RABANIM malacha can be done BY MEN only is just for 10 minutes post shkiah (it's not Satmar my community but another mainstream Chassidish group and Chassidim on here will probably know which) and not applicable to women who light at or before shkiah since once you light you are mekabel Shabbos. Our communities are just as shocked about people who don't keep 72 min since that's halachic for us and how we base all of our other zman.

Other communities have other times like Viznitz has an earlier than 72 min zman (for which they are often given "flack") and Skver has different ways of calculating zmanim.

Ultimately we need to just respect everyone because they are all different valid interpretations of Torah/gemara/etc. So while I was raised that 70 minutes Motsi Shabbos is MACHALEL Shabbos I still consider all of Viznitz to be Shomer Shabbos and respect their opinion.

BTW - the zmanim I'm referring to are for NY/NJ - Israel is a totally different boat.

Last edited by nchr on Wed, Sep 02 2020, 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

camp123

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 7:58 am

Interesting discussion, another issue is that you can't bring in shabbos later than the whole community you are in. So if you go away for shabbos to a community where there is only a minyan for early shabbos and no late minyanim as far as I know you would not be able to bring on Shabbos at shkiah you have to follow the Minhag of the community you are in.

nchr

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 8:04 am

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

Thank you for the informative response but I'm going to keep looking for a halachic source.
I'm not understanding how someone can accept shabbos only after tzeis hakochavim.

Just to clarify: No one does that anymore - it was done in pre war Europe (in some communities). Today everyone has the 18 (or 15 minutes) before shkiah and light sometime during that period.

samantha87

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:33 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

Thank you for the informative response but I'm going to keep looking for a halachic source.
I'm not understanding how someone can accept shabbos only after tzeis hakochavim.

What NCHR said: it's a machlokes when shekiyah and tzeis really are. Many chassidim - and lots of other Ashkenazim pre-WWII - hold that shekiyah is much later than sunset. Here is a general explanation: https://www.chabad.org/library.....t.htm

samantha87

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:35 pm

nchr wrote:

Ultimately we need to just respect everyone because they are all different valid interpretations of Torah/gemara/etc. So while I was raised that 70 minutes Shabbos is MACHALEL Shabbos I still consider all of Viznitz to be Shomer Shabbos and respect their opinion.

100%

seafood

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 1:30 pm

nchr wrote:

There is a machlokes in gemara about when Shabbos starts. One opinion has as late as 50/60 (which equatea to 72 min Motsi Shabbos). Post war there was a compromise to do a machmir start with 18 min and a machmir end with 72 minutes but some rabanim think it's not ideal so always encourage people to light as close to shkiah as possible. The community where DER RABANIM malacha can be done BY MEN only is just for 10 minutes post shkiah (it's not Satmar my community but another mainstream Chassidish group and Chassidim on here will probably know which) and not applicable to women who light at or before shkiah since once you light you are mekabel Shabbos. Our communities are just as shocked about people who don't keep 72 min since that's halachic for us and how we base all of our other zman.

Other communities have other times like Viznitz has an earlier than 72 min zman (for which they are often given "flack") and Skver has different ways of calculating zmanim.

Ultimately we need to just respect everyone because they are all different valid interpretations of Torah/gemara/etc. So while I was raised that 70 minutes Shabbos is MACHALEL Shabbos I still consider all of Viznitz to be Shomer Shabbos and respect their opinion.

BTW - the zmanim I'm referring to are for NY/NJ - Israel is a totally different boat.

Some of my family members belong to the chassidishe group you mentioned. And the men will privately do melacha to even later than 10 minutes after shkia, but most try not to rely on that. It is an old minhag, they’re not being “meikel”

amother

Indigo

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 1:34 pm

samantha87 wrote:

Thank you! That makes a lot more sense.

nchr

Wed, Sep 02 2020, 2:39 pm

sfisch wrote:

Right it's not "meikel." It's a different halachic opinion of the zmanim. I guess for some people it is just very foreign.